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Spanish is not so important as latin-americans praise!
Dear Tim,
Arrogance has nothing to do with it. Simple research will suffice to know that the "New Laws" of the Catholic Kings of Spain are the starting point for a new era of human rights. Also, whatever you wish to call it, "conquest," "colonizaion," ect., the Spaniards transplanted their languange, religion, and culture over a vast geographic area. Moreover, they gave birth to over 24 countries, and in fact, even the "Fillipines" dedrive their name from King Felipe of Spain. You will also probably be surprised to know that modern economics also have their starting point in Spanish culture. Their are many excellant books on the subject. Try a google search on: "economics school Salamanca" to find out more. Morever, as to the "conquest" or whatever you want to call it, try reseaching the archives of Seville and you will find that the arguments of a "just conquest" of the indies of New Spain (America) are the prelude to modern human rights. This is not arrogance but rather a consequence of careful study. I find it rather arrogant of you to dismiss something you obviously know nothing about. Nonetheless, I can't blame you for being the victim of that very typical anglo ethnocentric mentallity. I'm sure it would also surprise know to know that the Spaniards invented reading glasses, the submarine as well as the areo blades of the helicopter. Of course, I don't want to overwhelm you but it is not arrogance simpy fact that while the anglo-saxons were still living in caves the spanish were living in castles. That of of the great emperors of Rome, many were Spaniards such as, Seneca, Tiberius, etc.
This simply has nothing to do with arrogance but rather with that anglo-saxon peculiarity of defaming anything spanish. Let me know what you learn after some careful reading.
Dear Tim,
Perhaps you will also let me know that "America" is derived from the Anglo-Saxon language? He,he, he!
With reference to the question of whether "Latin-Americans" and Spaniards are to be considered as one. I must say, as a Spaniard myself, absolutely not. Nonetheless, I think it curious that no-one has pointed out the fact the name "Americans" is in itself a misnomer since Mexicans, Argentinians, etc. are all "Americans." Moreover, the united states declare themselves as "Americans" and not of or being from the United States, as one would rationalize since in the end everyone in the continent is "American." It would seem the this distinction is clear in every other country except in that one in which the term "Americans" is applied. That is, in Spanish, for example, "Americans" (from the USA) are referred to as "estadounienses." It is actually kind of funny because the name "america(ns)" is of Spanish extract and actually has nothing to do with the Anglo-saxon culture that it is used to describe. Unless of course, someone can refute the fact that "America" is a spanish word.
With regard to the excellant and impressive culture of the Aztecs and Incas and the unending effort of South Americans to glorify these cultures and expouse their Spanish ancestry, in all reality these cultures were such that they routinely sacrificed thousands of people in their rituals, performed canniballism on a large scale, and knew not yet of the wheel or its use. With all due respect, these civilizations were NOT civil as one might be led to believe. It is true that in one week it was not uncommon for twenty-thousand indians be sacrifised by the Aztecs in accordance with their rituals to the gods. How does this fit in with that profesiezed mythical idea of the "true and noble" Indian?
On economics:
Grice-Hutchinson, Marjorie. 1952. The School of Salamanca: Readings in Spanish Monetary Theory, 1544 1605. Oxford: Clarendon Press.
The prehistory the Austrian School of economics can be found in the works of the Spanish scholastics written in what is known as the "Spanish Golden Century," which ran from the mid- sixteenth century through the seventeenth century.1
Who were these Spanish intellectual forerunners of the Austrian School of economics? Most of them were scholastics teaching morals and theology at the University of Salamanca, in the medieval Spanish city located 150 miles northwest of Madrid, close to the border of Spain with Portugal. These scholastics, mainly Dominicans and Jesuits, articulated the subjectivist, dynamic, and libertarian tradition on which, two-hundred-and-fifty years later, Carl Menger and his followers would place so much importance.2 Perhaps the most libertarian of all the scholastics, particularly in his later works, was the Jesuit Father Juan de Mariana. >>>
In fact, all Mariana did was to take an idea that natural law is morally superior to the might of the state to its logical conclusion. This idea had previously been developed in detail by the great founder of international law, the Dominican Francisco de Vitoria (1485 1546), who began the Spanish scholastic tradition of denouncing the conquest and particularly the enslavement of the Indians by the Spaniards in the New World.
From this, Mariana deduced that the king cannot demand tax without the consent of the people, since taxes are simply an appropriation of part of the subjects' wealth. In order for such an appropriation to be legitimate, the subjects must be in agreement. Neither may the king create state monopolies, since they would simply be a disguised means of collecting taxes.
Covarrubias's subjectivist conception was completed by another of his scholastic contemporaries, Luis Saravia de la Calle, who was the first to demonstrate that prices determine costs, not vice versa. Saravia de la Calle also had the special distinction of writing in Spanish, not in Latin. Its title was Instruccion de mercaderes (Instruction to merchants), and there we can read that "those who measure the just price by the labor, costs and risk incurred by the person who deals in the merchandise are greatly in error. The just price is found not by counting the cost but by common estimation."8>>>>>>
The subjectivist conception initiated by Covarrubias also allowed other Spanish scholastics to get a clear insight of the true nature of market prices, and of the impossibility of attaining an economic equilibrium.>>>>>
http://www.mises.org/content/juandemariana.asp
Some info for "professor" Tim: On HUMAN RIGHTS ORIGINS
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39d38e0d14db.htm
This essay is a simple gathering of the historical research made by several prestigious scholars who dedicated their efforts to find the truth behind the records of Spain’s discovery, conquest, colonization, and evangelization of America. The history of this transcendental historical period was hidden under a thick layer of soot, the infamous “Black Legend”. For the last 500 years, envy, ignorance, resentment, and religious and racial bigotry, have concealed from the public eye the achievements of this monumental enterprise. In this essay I have tried to shed some light on the historical truth by analyzing the five milestones that gave a unique humanistic seal to the Spanish colonization that distinguished it from similar enterprises throughout the history of mankind:
1)The attitude of the Crown of Spain towards the slavery and the human rights of the Indians.
2)The universal and egalitarian education found throughout the Spanish’ dominions.
3)The commitment to the evangelization, and social and medical welfare of the Indians.
4)The slavery of the Blacks and their treatment under the Crown of Spain.
5)The Church and its pursuit in the education and human rights in America.
The historians quoted in this essay are scholars well kwon for their serious research. Their only aim was not to compromise the truth in favor of special interests or prejudices. I would feel extremely satisfied if this essay contributes to the awakening of public interest to further knowledge of this matter.
This essay was presented on February 12, 1992 at the Institute of Hispanic Culture of Houston as part of the Commemoration of the 500 Anniversary of the Encounter of Two Worlds. This work can be freely reproduced in total or in part.
Spain founded 23 universities in colonial America, something without parallel in the history
Culturally speaking, Spain gave the very best to America. “The Spanish record of some twenty three colleges and universities in America, graduating 150,000 (including the poor, mestizos, and some Negroes) makes, for example, the Dutch in the East Indies at a later and supposedly more enlightened times, look obscurantism indeed. The Portuguese did not establish a single university in colonial Brazil nor in any other overseas possessions. The total of universities established by Belgium, England, Germany, France and Italy during later Afro-Asian colonial periods assuredly suffers by any fair comparison with the pioneering record of Spain.” (49)>>>
Immediately following the arrival of the first Spaniards in America, the Spanish Crown questioned itself about the moral, ethical and religious implications of such an extraordinary enterprise. The Crown based its behavior upon a document that began by proclaiming all men brothers since they were all descendants of Adam and Eve. Consequently, there was always a deep feeling of justice rooted in the laws proclaimed by Spain to protect the American Indians. This is a transcendental fact that brought about a radical change in the European juridical system and would place the Spanish Crown at a much higher level than the other nations of the time. >>>>
In 1571 another very important figure arrived in Peru, the Jesuit missionary José de Acosta. He was a scientist, cosmographer and a government specialist and became a professor at the University of Lima. He lived in Peru for a period of 15 years and for 2 years in Mexico and the Caribbean islands; acquiring tremendous knowledge of the indigenous cultures. Acosta also denounced the abuse, exploitation, wantonness and greed of the conquistadors. He searched for and proposed solutions to the critical situation basing his stand upon the humanistic teachings of Father Vitoria. Thus he became one of the first sources of Iberian American thought and one of the principal precursors of its democratic ideals. According to him, human will, social tolerance and political freedom were fundamental values of the human being without distinction of origin or race. There were many missionaries who dedicated their lives to the betterment of the Indians, sacrificing themselves even to the extreme of reaching martyrdom, like father Montesinos, in order to accomplish their labor of love in America. >>>
In Spain, well-respected people like Cardinal Cisneros, and a group of professors of the University of Salamanca also fought for the rights of the Indians, among them was the famous theologian Melchor Cano. Another group of professors from "Colegio de San Gregorio" in Valladolid also played and important role in this struggle. However, in the history of the human rights the works of the Dominican priest, Francisco Vitoria, are paramount. Considered the founder of modern international law, Vitoria published in 1532 his famous treatise De Indis in which he “established the right of the Indians to their territories and laws and denied to the Spaniards any right to be in the Indies at all, other than that of every man peacefully to go and trade everywhere and the duty of every Christian to convert the heathen.” (7) (*) This document would have transcendental repercussions not only in America but also throughout the whole European jurisprudence. >>>>
Spain showed the world a humanistic vision unequaled at that point in time. American historian Lewis Hanke corroborates this when he attests that: “ ...The clash of arms was not the only struggle during the conquest. The clash of ideas that accompanied the discovery of America and the establishment of Spanish rule there is a story that must be told as an integral part of the conquest, and endows it with a unique character worthy of note... The widespread criticism permitted, and even stimulated, by the crown really constitutes one of the glories of Spanish civilization... It is to Spain's everlasting credit that she allowed men to insist that all her actions in America be just...” (8) (*)
NEED MORE GO TO THIS WEB ADDRESS:
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39d38e0d14db.htm
MORE ON HUMAN RIGHTS ORIGINS FOR TIM:
Father Bartolome de Las Casas, "The Protector of the Indians" and first prophet for the human rights in America.
In the words of the American historian Lewis Hanke: "...It was on Cuban soil that Las Casas underwent his great spiritual renaissance in 1514...It was there that he decided to work for the cause of Indian freedom." (5) The homily given by Las Casas in the presence of governor Diego Velázquez on the 15th of August 1514 in the city of Sancti Spiritus, Cuba, became a milestone in the history of human rights, that homily condemned the "encomiendas" and he proceeded to give freedom to the Indians that had been under his guardianship. This was the beginning of a life totally dedicated to the struggle for the human rights of the natives. Las Casas thus became "The Protector of the Indians" and first prophet for the human rights in America.
Do you really need more? I'm so tired of the ignorance. READ A BOOK!!!
Contrast between the Spanish and the English colonization.
In Hispanic America there was a great degree of equality among men which unfortunately was not the case in the English, Dutch and French colonies, although their colonial period occurred during a century when the ethical and moral standards were supposedly much higher. It is therefore an incontrovertible fact that during the European colonization of the 17th throughout the 20th centuries we can not find a body of laws to protect the human rights of the natives that encompasses and is as generous as those found in the Spanish dominions from the very beginning of the colonization in the XVI century. While on the other hand, attested Dr. Powell: “the English government and people, and their New World progeny, exhibited for the most part, a supreme unconcern for the protection and welfare of the American Indian.” (15) It is reprehensible that “Settlers in South Carolina put a price on Indian prisoners caught alive and made handsome profits by selling them as slaves to the West Indies.” The contempt towards the human dignity was such that: “ Bristol businessmen throve in kidnapped English labour which they mercilessly shipped to the West Indies.” (16)
On December 29th, 1593, King Felipe II signed a Royal Order urging the Audiencia of Lima “henceforth to punish the Spaniards who insult, offend or ill-treat the Indians, with more severity than if the same offences were committed against the Spaniards.” Gabriel de Paniagua, knight of the Order de Calatrava, when he was Governor of the city of Cuzco, in Peru, “ordered a Spaniard's hand to be cut off because in his presence and without sufficient cause, the Spaniard gave a slap in the face to a cacique.” (17) It is important to point out that there was a law enacted by Felipe II "limiting the day's work to eight hours, Sunday free, for those workers engaged by or for military engineers, for fortresses, ports and other defense constructions. In case of accident, the workers while in the hospital (which, of course, was free) were paid half their wages.” (18) This protection was not given to the North American workers, or to most of the world, until the 20th century.
Unfortunately the sad truth is that, although the laws were the same for everyone throughout their overseas colonies, they were applied very differently among the private enterprises. The Indian mine workers in Peru were cruelly exploited under the work system called the “mita”. This was an Inca tradition under which all subjects would work for a time in public works under conditions that were close to slavery. This system was used by the Spaniards in the silver mines of Potosí even though a royal decree in 1601 asked them to abandon such forced labor in favor of better treatment and salary in order to attract free Indians to do such work. (19)
The way Indians were treated varied according to the place, but generally they were treated better in the Kingdom of New Spain than in Peru. With great vision, Hernán Cortés, who had studied law at the University de Salamanca, tried to save the Indian monuments and with his own money paid for the construction of schools and hospitals providing for them in his will. On the other hand, Francisco Pizarro, an illiterate adventurer without an education, was not as capable handling the extraordinary enterprise that had been provided by his fate. According to Lesley Byrd Simpson, renown North American scholar in Latin America: “It seems to me that the average stature of the viceroys of New Spain was so great that no country to my knowledge was ever more fortunate in its rulers...(Mexico) enjoyed a long life (three hundred years!) of relative peace, stability, and prosperity, in marked contrast to the squabbling nations of Europe. Some of the men who made this possible are worth our knowing.” (20) (*)
Under the Spanish rule, the Indian peasants fared better than the Russians or the German peasants
According to Humboldt, “the Indian farmer was poor but he was free. His state was far preferable to that of the peasants in a great part of northern Europe. The number of slaves was practically zero.” Humboldt "was very emphatic about the superiority of the standard of living of the Indians under the Spaniards compared to that of many European peasants, specially those in Russia and a great part of Northern Germany.” Humboldt published parallel tables of bread and meat consumption. Mexico City consumed 189 pounds of meat per person per year, compared to 163 in Paris and almost as much bread as any other city in Europe, 363 pounds of bread per person per year, as compared to 377 for Paris. Caracas consumed 7 times more meat per person than Paris. According to Mexican writer Esquivel Obregón in his book The Influence of Spain and United States over Mexico, published in 1918, the purchasing power of the Mexican worker in 1792, during colonial times, compared with the years 1891 and 1908 (after the Mexican independence) sharply declined and he follows “our wage earner in colonial days could purchase as much wheat as the French earner of 1918...” in other words, affirms Obregón, “we have gone backwards on the road of progress.” (21)
According to historian Francis C. Kelly: “It is only justice to say that the Spanish Crown did all it could under difficult circumstances to favor and assist the solid growth and development of its American territories.” (22) The Spaniards tried to develop the production of wheat, olive, sugar cane, citrus and fruit trees and many other forms of land cultivation. The breeding of animals was introduced and developed, the cow, horse, pig, sheep, goat, and poultry enriched the food supply of the American inhabitants. Silk and cotton production and weaving as well as metal industries were also introduced. “Arts and crafts were taught to the natives. Together with catechism, morals and good behavior, and by way of enjoyment, play and pastime, gardening and farming were taught to Indian children” (23)
We all know that among the different Indian cultures there was a great disparity regarding the development and degree of civilization, while some were still in the stone age, others like the Inca and Aztec empires had reached great splendor and development. The Incas had a highly efficient system of social organization. However, in both Inca and Aztec empires there were a great deal of internal squabbling, despotic regimes and bloody religious rites which made many of the downtrodden tribes turn to the Spaniards in hope of deliverance. Cannibalism and human sacrifices were common practice among most of the Indian tribes. Besides that, we find that slavery was prevalent in America before Columbus' arrival, just as it was the case throughout most of Europe, Africa and Asia from ancient times, although with the arrival of Christianity, slavery had begun to disappear in Europe. Prisoners of war among Christians could not be enslaved. Spain extended this principle to the Indians even for those who would not accept Christianity; however, there were a few exceptions like the valiant Araucans Indians from Chile. In reality we find that it was the Spanish Crown which first introduced laws abolishing Indian slavery in America. Although these laws were frequently violated in the end they nevertheless prevailed.
First steps towards a democratic system in America
As much as possible the Spanish Crown and its agents tried to preserve the laws and the political structures of the Aztec and Inca empires so that the Indians would be ruled by their own laws. The Crown even went so far as to recognize the hereditary rights of the Indian chiefs. In those tribes that did not already have a juridical tradition the laws of Castile applied. In the Indian townships they functioned the same way as in the other kingdoms of Spain. The Indians would choose among themselves the mayor, bailiffs, court clerks, and councilmen, and the royal authorities were strictly forbidden from interfering in any way with the freedom of elections. Not even the “Audiencia”, (tribunal of justice) which was responsible for the education and good treatment of the Indians in spiritual and temporal matters, nor any other law-authorities had the right to ask the members of the “cabildo” (councilmen) to reveal what had been discussed at its meetings. (24) This was the seed of a democratic system.
Spain establishes public education in America 300 years before the English did it in its territories. The Church, protector of the Indians, educator and messenger of the Gospel.
Another legacy that certainly deserves recognition is the educational labor of the Catholic Church, which had the generous financial support of the Spanish Crown. From the start of the colonization they would build a school next to every church and monastery in order to teach the Indians to read and write in Latin, also in their own tongues, and later in Spanish. The missionaries promoted as a common language Nahuatl for the Indians of New Spain, Quechua for those from Peru, and Latin as means of communication among the natives and the Spaniards.
On January 6, 1534, barely 3 years after the conquest of Tenochtitlan (Mexico City) by Hernán Cortés, the first institution for the higher education of the Indians was founded, the Holy Cross College in Tlatelolco. This college turned out Indian scholars as finished as the Spanish who gave great service as translators among both cultures. In Hispanic America, three hundred years before public education would reach the United States; a system of schools, colleges, and universities was founded in what would become the first public educational system in the New World wholly supported by the Crown of Spain. Some of these schools had as many as 800 to 1000 students and there one would find the children of the Spaniards and the Indians in the same classrooms. In 1531 there were more than 10,000 Indians students in the schools of New Spain. The first school for girls in the New World was founded in 1548 by the first archbishop of Mexico City, Juan de Zumárraga. Bishop Zumárraga was described as “an apostle, poor, humble, wise, prudent, educated, charitable, a mortal enemy of superstition and tyranny, an indefatigable propagator of the true doctrine of Jesus Christ, a protector of the helpless, a benefactor of the people, materially as well as morally...he founded hospitals, established schools for native boys and girls, and as the editor of many important works for the education of the Indians, he was very liberal minded.” (25)
In contrast, it is necessary to point out that not until 1789 was the first system of public education in United States founded in Boston, and not until 1825 were girls permitted to attend and only up to elementary school level (277 years after Mexico). According to the United States Bureau of Education “in 1800 the average American was receiving no more than 82 days of schooling in his lifetime. Many communities had no schools...The educational situation during the first decades of American national life was wholly chaotic.” (26) In 1865, after Abraham
Interante Raúl, estas mostrando los puntos de vista de la "leyenda blanca" vs la "leyenda negra" de la colonizacion española. Sin embargo aún hay mucho mas que discutir, sin embargo sería bueno que no copiaras todo el texto y solo pusieras una parte y el link correspondiente, ya que de lo contrario es algo molesto para la vista el leer párrafos tan grandes y saturados. Yo como mexicano podría darte otros puntos de vista también.
Raul, muy buen hecho.
Tu has demostrado una gran variedad de inteligencia en vuestra escritura y texto emulado de otro sitios. No obstante, te doy elogio.
Casi todo lo que indicaste posee merito y es correcto, ademas aun hay evidencia que los espanoles eran geniales, por hechos que (hay 20 paises que hablan el espanol) y tambien Mexico le da gracias a vosotros.
Por la cultura espanola e institutos universitarias sobre Mexico y varios lugares donde todavia hay gente 'mexicana' de descendencia Espanola que nunca se ha olvidado de su raices. Gracias, de nuevo.
Yo siendo Mexicano, descendencia Italiana y Espanola. Se la habla espanola con soltura. Soy orgulloso de ser Mexicano con descendencia Italiana/Espanola.
"Bona gens; bona terra gens laboriosa"
Luis Zalot , where the heck are you from, third world ? your Spanish is trashy as heck.
dude who knows? What a name isn't good enough for you? Hah.
How would you write that in Spanish? Let's see how intellect you are.
If you dare to post your name and a BETTER translation in Spanish.
We'll await your response.
Thanks for the support. Having grown up in the US, I guess I'm just tired of the same retoricá and ignorance. I will try to keep things brief in the future and simply add a link, but I wanted to be abundantly clear. It is time that South Americans embrace their Spanish origins instead of excusing themselves for being of Spanish ancestory. We have much to be proud of. Time is our ally and the truth eventually always floats to the top. I was just in Spain and the new immigration from South America is encouraging as more people are proudly reclaiming their Spanish ancestory. Incidentally, things are going very well there! Viva España! Many "Americans" are surprised to find that the quality of life in many ways exeeds that of the United States. In fact, many 'estadounienses' don't want to leave. Oh well, back u go, hehehe!
Sigma,
Esto no es leyenda blanca, es la realidad que hay, ni más, ni menos. Si acaso en latino america teneis el derecho a criticar vuestra herencia y disfrutais de vuestro origen indio es precisamente por las libertades y compasion que mantuvieron los españoles durante la conquista. Ahora bien nadie aqui niega que no se cometieron disparates y atrozidades, pero tampoco que me digan que los ingleses o otros europeos colonizaron de una forma mas humano. O que tal vez sean ellos mas cultos cuando todo lo historico indica el contrario. Desgraciadamente desde hace mucho en latino america hay una traicion a lo que es ser de origen española y por lo tanto los hechos historicos no cuadran con la desprecia que nos hace nuestros propios hijos en latino america. ¿Acaso estados unidos os quiere mas que nosotros? ¿Y el porque entonces el aceptar todo lo estadouniense y rechazar vuestra propia herencia? Gracias a Dios esto poco a poco va cambiando. ¿Pero cuando llegará el día cuando digan las latinos <<somos orgullosos de ser no solamente indios, pero españoles de buena crianza>>?
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