Is "screwed up" an inappropriate term for a presid

I'm not foreign - well, I'm a native English speaker, at least - and I think it totally inappropriate.

He's debatably the most powerful man in the world. He's the head of a huge country, he should use proper, formal English - not something that your average chav (do you have chavs in America?) would say. It's a perfect example of social class.

On an informal basis, the term is fine - I have no problems with it. However, anything where he is acting as president, and in public view, he should use proper, non-colloquial words. Can you imagine the Queen saying 'screw-up'? I'm not asserting Britain over America here, I hasten to add - merely comparing heads of countries.

Personally if the head of my country started to talk like that, I'd be worried about his responsibility and professionalism. It's only a short step from 'screw up' to 'Hey, let's nuke the Ruskis'.

I think it is perfectly OK to use such an expression. While it's not formal speech, it is far from offensive or even slang. The word carries no inappropriate connotations whatsoever.

"I'm not foreign - well, I'm a native English speaker, at least - and I think it totally inappropriate. "

Caspian, you're an Englishman. While not wishing to impugn your judgment, I reassert that you don't understand our frustration with lies, treachery, and Doublespeak that has come out of Washington since the 1970s.

Moreover, wasn't escaping the institutions of nobility and social class a driving force behind the Constitution? We were all supposed to be equal in the eyes of the law.

"I'm not asserting Britain over America here, I hasten to add - merely comparing heads of countries. "

Comparing the heads of the two countries is surely like comparing apples and oranges.

Obama, an African-American, grew up in a single-mother family who received Welfare for a while (was "on the dole" in UK-speak); the Queen never faced a day in her life without her grape scissors. Who, in your opinion, overcame greater odds?

<< Caspian, you're an Englishman. While not wishing to impugn your judgment, I reassert that you don't understand our frustration with lies, treachery, and Doublespeak that has come out of Washington since the 1970s. >>

Our government is not perfect either, but it does help when they speak Standard English - then it's so much easier for everybody to know what they're talking about. And it's not only native English speakers who need to be able to understand your president - he's famous worldwide, so surely using Standard English would be so much better.

<< Moreover, wasn't escaping the institutions of nobility and social class a driving force behind the Constitution? We were all supposed to be equal in the eyes of the law. >>

Yes; however we're not equal really, so what's the point in pretending we are - there's nothing good about pretending everybody is the same. It quenches intelligence, and encourages stupidity (encourages the majority), and leads to near-communism. I'm no believer in all this wishy-washy equality stuff. Social classes may be ignored, but they'll always exist.

<< Comparing the heads of the two countries is surely like comparing apples and oranges. >>

Not at all. Countries are different, but America and Britain are both English speaking, both '1st world' countries, and have nearly no cultural difference in everyday life. It's more like comparing a Braeburn to a Gala, perhaps - and it goes without saying, heads of state should use proper, standard English.

<< Obama, an African-American, grew up in a single-mother family who received Welfare for a while (was "on the dole" in UK-speak); the Queen never faced a day in her life without her grape scissors. Who, in your opinion, overcame greater odds? >>

I'm not talking about who overcame the greater odds - and I think it's great that he's become president after that - it shows that anybody can do anything if they plug on at it. However, if he's taken on the responsibility of the role of president, then there's no excuse for not being able to use formal words!

<<then there's no excuse for not being able to use formal words!>>

He IS able to use words, and better than most people who claim he isn't. He can also use Ebonics if he wants to. Maybe some African Americans would love to hear him tell them something with "their" accent. He knows how to use words, don't worry about it.

And I'm a non-native speaker who thinks "screw up" was ok. As I said, maybe some people think there's something wrong with the word "screw" because they think of the other meaning, which is a secondary meaning though (I wanna screw that babe). The first meaning is another.

Well, Caspian, I can see that you love a good debate. (My, the British really are stuffy! I thought it was just a stereotype.)

However, I think that a gentleman's agreement to disagree is in order.

What a pity! Casper is so young and he is already so conservative and traditionalist....

Well, here's the problem: in the US, I think "screwed up" IS pretty standard usage. That's why none of the Americans here can figure out what all the fuss is about.

I think the American equivalent of "chavs" is "trailer trash".

The difference between social classes in the US and the UK DOES make for apples-and-oranges comparisons, because ours classes are primarily economic in nature, and over the course of your life, you will likely be a member of several different classes. They aren't something you are born into and remain tainted by all your life, as they seem to be in the UK. Nor do Americans of different economic classes exhibit differences in social behavior to any large degree -- you usually can't tell if a person is rich or poor or middle class in a casual conversation. And we completely lack the class-based accent structure that the UK seems to have.

I think "screw up" was a foolish thing to say, not because of the words themselves, but because it is silly and over the top. I would rather he said "I made a mistake", "screw up" is too strong for the given situation, an expression better reserved for real big errors, like Bush when he found out there were no WMDs.

Queen Victoria wouldn't approve this message.

<< He IS able to use words, and better than most people who claim he isn't. He can also use Ebonics if he wants to. Maybe some African Americans would love to hear him tell them something with "their" accent. He knows how to use words, don't worry about it. >>

I guess I said that wrongly. What I in fact meant was not that he CAN'T use the words, but that he DOESN'T. I don't doubt that he can.

<< And I'm a non-native speaker who thinks "screw up" was ok. As I said, maybe some people think there's something wrong with the word "screw" because they think of the other meaning, which is a secondary meaning though (I wanna screw that babe). The first meaning is another. >>

I see your point here - I think for me, it's not the alternative meaning of the word 'screw' that gets to me - it's the informal feeling that the word gives. Perhaps some find that comforting, I don't know - just I feel it's out of context for the President, so makes me feel uneasy.

<< Well, Caspian, I can see that you love a good debate. (My, the British really are stuffy! I thought it was just a stereotype.)

However, I think that a gentleman's agreement to disagree is in order. >>

Lol! That's interesting, I'm a stereotypical Brit! Well thanks, I respect your view too, as you say, we're all entitled to our own views - and I know mine are right-wing, and I suppose I should be ashamed... but I'm not! Just out of interest - I promise I won't take offence - could you describe the stereotypical Brit? I always imagined him as the kind of 'Hugh Grant' character, do you know what I mean?

Uriel, I see what you say - perhaps social classes are more important here, I hadn't considered that. I think they're becoming less apparent as the government, who like to pretend everybody is equal even when they're not, tries to blank out this system.

<< What a pity! Casper is so young and he is already so conservative and traditionalist.... >>

1. My name is not Casper, but Caspian.
2. I think I should thank you for your kind consideration in feeling pity for the fact that I hold the views I do - but please, don't worry, I like my views! And yes, conservative and traditionalist are two things which I can call myself WITHOUT feeling ashamed.
3. Perhaps once, when I was drunk, I posted my age here? I really don't remember. How old am I, could you tell me that?

<,3. Perhaps once, when I was drunk, I posted my age here? I really don't remember. How old am I, could you tell me that? >>

15 years.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and pursue this class thing a little further. It seems like from everything I've read, speech is a big class indicator in the UK. Not just how you sound but what you say. Your word choices are obvious social markers that other Brits read very clearly and use to form a quick mental snapshot of who you are and where you stand in society, especially relative to them. They can also "read" discontinuities between your speech and the other ways you present yourself outwardly to an audience, such as clothing or grooming or whatever, and are quick to spot attempts to make yourself seem "better' than you "really are".

Americans really are blind to all these subtle nuances, because they just don't exist to any great degree in our society. It's not that we are perfectly classless and egalitarian, because that would be a lie. We certainly do have classes. But how you speak and what you say aren't the big identifying markers. So we are far less sensitive to word choices and how they reflect on us, because they really don't to any great degree; while the British put a lot of effort into developing that ear for accent and colloquialisms because it does play a big role in their social interactions. So by Caspian's standards, his reading into the president's word choices makes perfect sense. No doubt some of our other posters also come from cultures that place a similar emphasis on social position and speech.

In contrast, Americans often go the opposite route -- we value plain speaking over fancy rhetoric. Partially this is because it comes across as much more honest, which is something that has a lot of social value to us, whereas fancy talk or overly formal speech usually sets off our bullshit meters and results in distrust and disdain -- Jasper's term doublespeak is a perfect example of this attitude. There IS an egalitarian streak in American culture, and we often dislike people who try to "put on airs" or act "better" than others. That is one reason why Americans of all classes tend to speak similarly, and why accents are more of a regional nature than a social nature -- and why we attach little importance to them and place little emphasis on learning to identify them. That's why we don't read anything much into "screw up" -- it isn't a social identifier of any kind here.

↑ I agree with all of these points.

Caspian, to address your point, stereotypes in America about Brits tend to fall into two categories: the lower-class Cockney (or other local) who drinks too much and gets into riots at soccer games, and the upper-class gentleman who speaks RP, has polished manners, but tends to be intolerant towards perceived breaches of etiquette.

As for the latter, I think perhaps Captain Hastings of the Poirot series, played by Hugh Fraser, embodies the stereotype the best.

To underscore one of Uriel's points, such a man would have no chance at all of winning an election here in the US. We seemed to have inherited or developed a disdain of "putting on airs", and a candidate such as Adlai Stevenson, an upper-class effete who spoke pure Mid-Atlantic English, is seen as too far removed from the rest of us to be a good representative...