Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?

Robin Michael   Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:16 am GMT
"Often" rhymes with "soften". The T is silent.Yes, often has oft as its root, just as soften has soft as its root. It's weird how you hear more and more people mispronuncing it these days.

Is it that people in America lack self-confidence in their own knowledge that as soon as they hear an alternative pronunciation of a word that they must change the way they say it? Or is it that people can't remember how to spell it without pronouncing the T?

Extra-Ordinary or ick-strordinary

Obama mispronounced another often mispronounced word, extraordinary, during that forum at Columbia University. He pronounced it extra-ordinary. It's pronounced ick-strordinary. Again, probably just a reminder on how to spell the word.

If we must make it a mission to stop George Bush from saying nukuler, let's get rid of the T in often and stop saying extraordinary as two words.

http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=857921


Why can't the English teach their children how to speak? "My Fair Lady lyrics

http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/myfairlady/whycanttheenglish.htm
USA power   Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:26 am GMT
Stop spamming. British pronunciation is wrong, American is right. And why did you title the thread 'why can't the English...'? It seems you're complaining about Americans, not English, and we Americans don't have anything to do with the pasty poms.
AR   Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:33 am GMT
You realize that "often" comes from the word "oft" and somewhere during the middle english it picked up an ending that it didn't used to have "-en". Given etymology pronouncing with [t] is not an incorrect "way" of pronouncing the word - although perhaps you could argue that [t] is going out of use.

As to Extraordinary: The usage of [epsilon] (sorry I don't have the proper character to use here) vs [capital-i], or in other words "e" and "i" differs VASTLY depending on which part of the country you come from. In Midwestern states "e" in extraordinary will be pronounced with "e" - it's just the way it is. If you say travel down to Oklahoma, you'll notice that all usages of "e" becomes "i". I have a friend whose name is Jenny. The correct pronounciation of her name given where she comes from is "Jinny".

There is no correct "e" vs "i". It all depends on which dialect you speak.
RA   Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:47 am GMT
<<As to Extraordinary: The usage of [epsilon] (sorry I don't have the proper character to use here) vs [capital-i], or in other words "e" and "i" differs VASTLY depending on which part of the country you come from. In Midwestern states "e" in extraordinary will be pronounced with "e" - it's just the way it is. If you say travel down to Oklahoma, you'll notice that all usages of "e" becomes "i". I have a friend whose name is Jenny. The correct pronounciation of her name given where she comes from is "Jinny".>>

That's nice and all, but what does it have to do with the fact that Obama said it like it was the word "extra" followed by the word "ordinary"?
JTT   Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:47 pm GMT
If you look at the Merriam-Webster dictionary or dictionary.com, you'll see that there are more than one 'acceptable' pronunciations of 'often' and 'extraordinary'. How one pronounces these words depends on regional dialect and/or personal preference. They are by no means mispronunciations.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/extraordinary

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/extraordinary

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/often

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/often
Liz   Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:32 pm GMT
"Often" with a "t" sound and "extraordinary" pronounced as two words are acceptable alternative ways of pronouncing these words. It's just dialectal or rather idiolectal variation.
Caspian   Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:35 pm GMT
On the contrary, I understand fully - and agree.
AJC   Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:24 pm GMT
<<Often" rhymes with "soften".>>

Yes

<<The T is silent.>>

no
Damian in Edinburgh   Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:25 pm GMT
***we Americans don't have anything to do with the pasty poms***

That's really and truly good to know, but tell me....since when have rosy cheeked/sallow/super tanned/freckly/pale/dark/spotty/all colours of the rainbow Americans adopted Australian terms? What's wrong with the the long established All American term "limeys"?
Robin Michael   Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:52 pm GMT
Dear mjd [Moderator]

A Moderator should be just that. It is a big mistake to be confrontational!

I must admit I got the presentation slightly wrong. I had actually lifted a large quote, and I had not put it in quotation marks. The quote came from:

http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=857921

which happened to be an American source.

I also quoted something from 'My Fair Lady' which was taken out of context to imply a pro-British stance. It was simply meant to be amusing.

So, I think we are back in 'storm in a tea cup' territory.
Kess   Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:13 am GMT
Often with [t] is spelling pronunciation, just like vehicle with [h].
yearning to know   Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:35 am GMT
<<That does not, however, prevent me from participating in the discussions.>>

Then how come you don't post in the "What is “antimoon”?" thread about the meaning of the name Antimoon? I'm yearning to know the answer to the thousand year old mystery!
Robin Michael   Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:49 am GMT
Dear mjd

I think that if you are 'the Moderator' that it is a mistake for you to Post in your own name. I also think that it is a mistake for you to get involved in discussions. I certainly think that it is a mistake for you to get involved in arguments.

I can remember getting involved with a Native Speaker of Polish about whether I should pronounce 'often' with or without a 't'.

I am a Native Speaker of English, and I thought that she was being very presumptuous in trying to correct me.

However, I then took an interest in how 'often' was 'pronounced'.

In the Topic, "trouble in the night ! poetry!", someone misspelt "extrodinary". I believe the convention is to put 'sic' after such a misspelling.

So they misspelt 'extrodinary' sic 'their spelling'.

Sic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
15 Jun 2007 ... The word sic may be used either to show that an uncommon or archaic usage is reported faithfully: for instance, quoting the U.S. ..

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic

In trying to find out more about the word 'extraordinary', I came across the Post in another Forum that discussed both 'often' and 'extraordinary' in a very prescriptive way.

The film, "My Fair Lady" is about language and how language is taught. So, I introduced my Post with the title of the famous song from the film.

"Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?"

Which of course was sung by Professor Higgins (Rex Harrison).

Bye for now
Damian in Edinburgh   Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:10 am GMT
Old man Higgins did a really good job in transforming Eliza's speech....from the guttersnipe to lady...from Kentish Town to Kensington....from "Aaw gawd aaw'moity!" to "Oh, hahw do you do!" but he forgot to instruct her well enough to control herself at all times....like the time she was at Ascot races, all dressed up to the nines among all the Lords and Ladies, the transformed perfect English Lady and willing her horse to win....."Aaaaaw....cam awn!!!...shift ya bleeding arse!"

Classic.
?   Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:34 pm GMT
<<Often with [t] is spelling pronunciation, just like vehicle with [h].>>

vehicle /viːhaɪkl/