geminate consonants

appellammo   Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:59 am GMT
English
In English phonology, consonant length is not distinctive within root words. For instance, 'baggage' is pronounced /ˈbæɡɪdʒ/, not /bæɡːɪdʒ/. Phonetic gemination occurs marginally.


[edit] Estonian
Estonian has three phonemic lengths; however, the third length is a suprasegmental feature, which is as much tonal patterning as a length distinction. It is traceable to allophony caused by now-deleted suffixes, for example half-long linna < *linnan "of the city" vs. overlong linna < *linnahan "to the city".


[edit] Greek
In Ancient Greek, consonant length was distinctive, e.g., μέλω [mélɔː] "I am of interest" vs. μέλλω [mélːɔː] "I am going to".

The distinction has been lost in Standard Modern Greek, except in dialects such as the Cypriot-Greek dialect spoken in Cyprus, in varieties of the Aegean sea and elsewhere.


[edit] Hungarian
In Hungarian, consonant length is distinctive. For example megy means go, while meggy means sour cherry.


[edit] Italian
In Standard Italian, consonant and vowel length are distinctive. For example, "bevve" means "he/she drank", while "beve" means "he/she drinks/is drinking". Tonic syllables are bimoraic and are therefore composed of either a long vowel in an open syllable (beve) or a short vowel in a closed syllable (bevve). Double consonants occur not only within words but at word boundaries, where they are pronounced but not necessarily written: "chi + sa" = "chissà'" (who knows) [kis'sa] and "vado a casa" (I am going home) pronounced [va:do akkaza]. See syntactic doubling.


[edit] Japanese
In Japanese, consonant length is distinctive. For example, 来た(kita) means 'came; arrived', while 切った(kitta) means 'cut; sliced'.


[edit] Latin
In Latin, consonant length was distinctive, e.g., anus "ring" vs. annus "year".

Gemination still occurs in Italian and Catalan, but has been completely lost in French and Spanish.


[edit] Polish
In Polish, consonant length is distinctive. For example,

rodziny – 'of the family'; rodzinny' – adjective of 'family'
Grecy – 'Greeks' (noun); greccy – 'Greek' (adjective) — in fact it is pronounced [grɛt​͡st​͡sɨ].

[edit] Russian
In Russian, consonant length (indicated with two letters, as in ванна [ˈvannə] 'bathtub') may occur in several situations.

Word formation or conjugation: длина ([ˈdlʲinə] 'length') → длинный ([ˈdlʲinnɨj] 'long')
Phonological alternations:
высший ([ˈvɨʂːɨj] 'highest').[1]

[edit] Wagiman
In Wagiman, an indigenous Australian language, consonant length in stops is the primary phonetic feature that differentiates fortis and lenis stops. Wagiman does not have phonetic voice. Word-initial and word-final stops never contrast for length
eeva liisa   Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:30 pm GMT
Finnish has got plenty of geminate consonants too
matko   Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:43 pm GMT
Spanish: "rr"
PARISIEN   Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:58 pm GMT
<< Gemination [ ... ] has been completely lost in French >>

-- English Wikipedia stupidity at its best!
Glou   Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:01 pm GMT
Spanish "r" vs "rr" isn't a distinction in the length of one unique sound: those are too different sounds. The former is an alveolar flap /ɾ/ while the latter is an alveolar trill /r/.
Glou   Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:02 pm GMT
those are two* different sounds
moi   Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:13 pm GMT
English Wikipedia stupidity at its bes

Vous pouvez lire cela dans pas mal de livres sur la linguistique romane...le plus souvent ces livres ont été écrits par des spécialistes en langues néo-latines.
gurdy   Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:19 pm GMT
Et en quoi c'est stupide? Donnez moi un seul exemple en Français dans lequel l'absence de gémination conduit à une incompréhension de la phrase ou du mot.
J'attends.
moi otra vez   Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:24 pm GMT
Spanish "r" vs "rr" isn't a distinction in the length of one unique sound: those are too different sounds. The former is an alveolar flap /ɾ/ while the latter is an alveolar trill /r/.

Not all linguists agree with this statement.....
Glou   Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:29 pm GMT
/*Not all linguists agree with this statement..... */

are you sure about that? ask any native spanish speaker to pronounce the letter "r" and the letter "rr", and i don't know how you could disagree with an alveolar flap for the first sound and an alveolar trill for the second one.
PARISIEN   Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:38 pm GMT
<< Donnez moi un seul exemple en Français dans lequel l'absence de gémination conduit à une incompréhension de la phrase ou du mot.
J'attends. >>

Tu n'as pas longtemps à attendre: fais une phrase avec les verbes "courir" ou "mourir" à l'imp. et au conditionnel.

"A t'entendre, tout le monde mourait"
"A t'entendre, tout le monde mourrait"

Vu la différence ?

Il y a un certain nombre de mots où la gémination est normale en français ("syllabe", "grammaire", "villa", et tous les mots commençant par un "i" privatif: immonde, immobile, illogique, illégal, illégitime, illicite etc.), il y a aussi un redoublement syntactique particulier servant à éliminer des ambigüités avec un "L'" pronom et un verbe auxiliaire. Ainsi, "Tu l'as" (son "LL") est prononcé différemment de "tue-la" (L simple).
matko   Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:46 pm GMT
been there, done that. at the university, of course hehe
Parisien, you're right, same examples we've done here.
pour Greg   Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:48 pm GMT
"A t'entendre, tout le monde mourait"
"A t'entendre, tout le monde mourrait"


J'aimerais connaitre l'opinion de Greg. Est-ce que les verbes mourait et mourrait se prononcent de façon différente?
guest   Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:51 pm GMT
Norwegian 'etter' from earlier 'efter' is a byspel of gemination?
PARISIEN   Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:06 pm GMT
Autre exemple:

"Tu courais plus vite avec des Adidas"
"Tu courrais plus vite avec des Adidas"...

Il y a une grosse différence entre les 2 phrases, et je ne connais personne qui ne fasse pas de distinction phonétique entre les deux.

Le redoublement des consonnes est une ressource peu employée en français, mais qui reste toujours présente, au cas où. Quand nécessaire elle s'intègre sans problème dans la langue parlée, étant donné les accumulations de consonnes qui se trouvent à la jonction des mots (comment est prononcé 'CAC-40' à la TV? comment dit-on 'pas de délire'? [paddélir] ou 'il se sent bien'? [ysssenbien])