Dan, think garden is a word which has taken that way to English.
what makes English Germanic?
Thanks Sander. English seems to loan words (especially Germanic ones) from the 'backdoor' unlike other Germanic languages which loan directly from the Original Language.
The Swede,
=>:) Why not? <=
Because , my Swedish friend who never visits langcafe.net eventhough there are many interesting discussions about Swedish, English isn't a mix!
Natural language are the product of evolution not a recipe ;) So please don't use 'mix' anymore.You're 'the swede' not 'the swedish chef ' :)
=>:) Why not? <=
Because , my Swedish friend who never visits langcafe.net eventhough there are many interesting discussions about Swedish, English isn't a mix!
Natural language are the product of evolution not a recipe ;) So please don't use 'mix' anymore.You're 'the swede' not 'the swedish chef ' :)
But I don´t understand you Sander, because 60% of the English words are from latin orign and about 20% are Germanic words so, why don´t call it a mix? I agree that English is a product of an evolution but that don´t change the English language history.
I have never said that I am the chef of Sweden if you aim to "The Sweden" then I can tell you that I realize that I spelled wrong last time but I realize it after my massage had become post.
I have never said that I am the chef of Sweden if you aim to "The Sweden" then I can tell you that I realize that I spelled wrong last time but I realize it after my massage had become post.
Dan,
Actually 'Garden' is a very strange word which combines the meanings from an early PIE stem:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------{INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE TREE}------------------
--- Original romance meaning ------ Original germanic meaning ---
------- + Garden + ----------------- + enclosure + --------------
------------------------------------------------------------------
-------- (Romance)---------------------(Germanic)---------------
----------{Latin}--------------------{Proto-Germanic}-----------
-- = hortus gardinus =------------- = gardon/garda = ----------
---------- | ------------------------------- | ------------------
---------- | ----------------------------{Frankish}--------------
---------- | ---------------------------- = gardo = -------------
----------- \ ---------------------------------/ - \ ---------------
------------ \ --------------------------------/ --- \ --------------
------------- \ ------------------------------/ ----- \ -------------
-------------- \ ----------------------------/ ---- {Old English}---
--------------- \ --------------------------/ ----- = geard = -----
---------------- \ ------------------------/ -----------------------
----------------- \ ----------------------/ ------------------------
-------------------\ ------------------- / -------------------------
------------------- \ ---(Romance)--- / --------------------------
------------------ + Enclosed Garden + --------------------------
----------------- {Old Normand French}--------------------------
---------------------------- | -----------------------------------
---------------------------- | -----------------------------------
------------------------(Germanic)--------------------------------
--------------------- {Middle English} ----------------------------
---------------------------- | -----------------------------------
------------------------(Germanic)--------------------------------
-------------------- {Modern English} ----------------------------
----------------------- = garden = -------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually 'Garden' is a very strange word which combines the meanings from an early PIE stem:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------{INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE TREE}------------------
--- Original romance meaning ------ Original germanic meaning ---
------- + Garden + ----------------- + enclosure + --------------
------------------------------------------------------------------
-------- (Romance)---------------------(Germanic)---------------
----------{Latin}--------------------{Proto-Germanic}-----------
-- = hortus gardinus =------------- = gardon/garda = ----------
---------- | ------------------------------- | ------------------
---------- | ----------------------------{Frankish}--------------
---------- | ---------------------------- = gardo = -------------
----------- \ ---------------------------------/ - \ ---------------
------------ \ --------------------------------/ --- \ --------------
------------- \ ------------------------------/ ----- \ -------------
-------------- \ ----------------------------/ ---- {Old English}---
--------------- \ --------------------------/ ----- = geard = -----
---------------- \ ------------------------/ -----------------------
----------------- \ ----------------------/ ------------------------
-------------------\ ------------------- / -------------------------
------------------- \ ---(Romance)--- / --------------------------
------------------ + Enclosed Garden + --------------------------
----------------- {Old Normand French}--------------------------
---------------------------- | -----------------------------------
---------------------------- | -----------------------------------
------------------------(Germanic)--------------------------------
--------------------- {Middle English} ----------------------------
---------------------------- | -----------------------------------
------------------------(Germanic)--------------------------------
-------------------- {Modern English} ----------------------------
----------------------- = garden = -------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The Swede,
=>But I don´t understand you Sander, because 60% of the English words are from latin orign and about 20% are Germanic words so, why don´t call it a mix? I agree that English is a product of an evolution but that don´t change the English language history.
<=
When you say mix , that brings up the image of a cook taking " a snuff of Germanic and 2 liters of Romance.Putting it in a pot and let it boil for a few centuries ... and voila! Modern English. "
=>I have never said that I am the chef of Sweden if you aim to "The Sweden" then I can tell you that I realize that I spelled wrong last time but I realize it after my massage had become post. <=
That was actually a joke :)
" The Swedish Chef " was/is a muppet:
http://farm.tucows.com/2004/12/swedish_chef.jpg
=>But I don´t understand you Sander, because 60% of the English words are from latin orign and about 20% are Germanic words so, why don´t call it a mix? I agree that English is a product of an evolution but that don´t change the English language history.
<=
When you say mix , that brings up the image of a cook taking " a snuff of Germanic and 2 liters of Romance.Putting it in a pot and let it boil for a few centuries ... and voila! Modern English. "
=>I have never said that I am the chef of Sweden if you aim to "The Sweden" then I can tell you that I realize that I spelled wrong last time but I realize it after my massage had become post. <=
That was actually a joke :)
" The Swedish Chef " was/is a muppet:
http://farm.tucows.com/2004/12/swedish_chef.jpg
"When you say mix , that brings up the image of a cook taking " a snuff of Germanic and 2 liters of Romance.Putting it in a pot and let it boil for a few centuries ... and voila! Modern English. " "
But it´s not a bad parable if you learn a Germanic language and a Romanic language then it must be quite easy to learn English because the chans is big that you can relate the English word to a Germanic word or to a Romanic.
But it´s not a bad parable if you learn a Germanic language and a Romanic language then it must be quite easy to learn English because the chans is big that you can relate the English word to a Germanic word or to a Romanic.
I wonder how large your advantage would be if you learned Islandic and Romanian. ;)
Dan,
Fr (adjectif) <blanc> est dérivé de l'adjectif germanique <blank> = "blanc". L'étymon Ge (adj) <blank> a donné latin médiéval <blancus>, italien <bianco>, catalan <blanc>, occitan <blanc> & castillan <blanco>. Fr (adj) <blanc> a ensuite donné MA <blanc> / <blank> puis An <blank>.
Recette de cuisine en moyen-anglais :
« BLANC MAUNGERE OF FYSSHE.
Take a pownde of ryse and sethe hom wele,
Tyl þat þay brostene; and lete hom kele.
Mylke of almondes þerto þou cast,
Þo tenche or lampray do to on last ;
Welle alle togeder, as I þe kenne,
And messe hit forthe before godde men.»
AF (adj) <blond> / <blont> / <blund>, comme latin médiéval <blundus>, It <biondo> & ancien provençal <blon> du Ge <blunda>.
MA <blond> vient de l'ancien français.
AF <bleu> / <bleve> / <blef> de l'ancien bas-francique <blao>, comme Oc <blau> /<blava>, bas latin <blavus>
AF <bleu> a donné MA <bleu> / <blwe> puis An <blue>.
Moyen- anglais :
« (...) twey blankettys, and a peyre schetes of Reynes, wit the heued shete of the same, and sex of my best pilwes, wic that he wol chese, and a bleu couertour of menyuer, and a keuerlet of red sendel ypouthered wit Cheuerons. »
« (...) and be-syde thise ther be in that cerkyl pale spottys, or yewlu, or very red, or lyke to a rede that ys fatyd, or sangwyne, or dunne, or blwe ; the qwyche colourys haue dyuerse sygnyffycacionnys, as I schal expres in this chapetur. »
Fr (adjectif) <blanc> est dérivé de l'adjectif germanique <blank> = "blanc". L'étymon Ge (adj) <blank> a donné latin médiéval <blancus>, italien <bianco>, catalan <blanc>, occitan <blanc> & castillan <blanco>. Fr (adj) <blanc> a ensuite donné MA <blanc> / <blank> puis An <blank>.
Recette de cuisine en moyen-anglais :
« BLANC MAUNGERE OF FYSSHE.
Take a pownde of ryse and sethe hom wele,
Tyl þat þay brostene; and lete hom kele.
Mylke of almondes þerto þou cast,
Þo tenche or lampray do to on last ;
Welle alle togeder, as I þe kenne,
And messe hit forthe before godde men.»
AF (adj) <blond> / <blont> / <blund>, comme latin médiéval <blundus>, It <biondo> & ancien provençal <blon> du Ge <blunda>.
MA <blond> vient de l'ancien français.
AF <bleu> / <bleve> / <blef> de l'ancien bas-francique <blao>, comme Oc <blau> /<blava>, bas latin <blavus>
AF <bleu> a donné MA <bleu> / <blwe> puis An <blue>.
Moyen- anglais :
« (...) twey blankettys, and a peyre schetes of Reynes, wit the heued shete of the same, and sex of my best pilwes, wic that he wol chese, and a bleu couertour of menyuer, and a keuerlet of red sendel ypouthered wit Cheuerons. »
« (...) and be-syde thise ther be in that cerkyl pale spottys, or yewlu, or very red, or lyke to a rede that ys fatyd, or sangwyne, or dunne, or blwe ; the qwyche colourys haue dyuerse sygnyffycacionnys, as I schal expres in this chapetur. »
Sander,
L'expression « Normand French » a la même signification que « portugais castillan » ou « néerlandais alémanique » ou « lombard gascon » ou encore « breton écossais ».
The Swede,
Oui, historiquement, le vocabulaire du moyen-anglais des classes éduquées est un véritable mélange (mix) d'ancien français outremanchais tardif et de moyen-anglais. Les francophones d'adoption des Îles britanniques (je ne parle pas des francohones de naissance) — c'est-à-dire des anglophones de naissance, des celtophones de naissance et peut-être certains des quelques scandinavophones de naissance qui devaient rester — mélangeaient les différents vocabulaires.
L'expression « Normand French » a la même signification que « portugais castillan » ou « néerlandais alémanique » ou « lombard gascon » ou encore « breton écossais ».
The Swede,
Oui, historiquement, le vocabulaire du moyen-anglais des classes éduquées est un véritable mélange (mix) d'ancien français outremanchais tardif et de moyen-anglais. Les francophones d'adoption des Îles britanniques (je ne parle pas des francohones de naissance) — c'est-à-dire des anglophones de naissance, des celtophones de naissance et peut-être certains des quelques scandinavophones de naissance qui devaient rester — mélangeaient les différents vocabulaires.
Cher Sander,
Wikipedia n'est pas forcément la référence à suivre. Normand et français sont 2 languages différents.
Wikipedia n'est pas forcément la référence à suivre. Normand et français sont 2 languages différents.
Ericka: >>What makes English Germanic when nearly all of the vocabulary is of Latin or French origin? And I would say that English is more related to French than to German and it doesn't sound German at all, and I don't understand any German! If English is not in the Romance language family, what is it then? It just can't be German (I can't understand that)
We have got so much from Latin and Greek<<
In short: what makes English Germanic is its basic word stock, phonology, morphology and syntax, which are all definitely like those of Germanic, not those of Romance languages (even if English syntax has for some part been influenced by French). I wouldn't say English is "related" to French, even if it has a huge number of French (and Latin) loanwords. "Relatedness" is not something that depends on a similar general vocabulary alone (except the very basic one), but also on morphology, and systematic differences between languages classed in the same group.
Thus, to take an extreme example, the full name behind the abbreviation "laser", "Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation", or for AIDS, "Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome" is Germanic, not Romance because of the morphemes "by" and "of" (the latter being related to Swedish "av", not Romance "de") and, in both cases, the ending "-ed" (cognate of German "-te" and Scandinavian "-ad"). Since these morphemes occur in countless other English sentences, they definitely link the language to the Germanic family.
This is true even if in the case of AIDS, all words of the French version SIDA are cognates of the English ones ("Syndrome d'immuno-déficience acquise"), and in the case of "laser", most words are of French/Latin origin (it would be "alers" when abbreviated in French: "Amplification de lumière par émission de radiation stimulée").
Moreover, the English name is Germanic even if the German name would be "Lichtverstärkung durch stimulierte Emission der Strahlung" (or something like this). Although the German sentence bears almost no similarity to the English one on the surface (save for two identical words borrowed from Latin), it is still related to English, for the reason that "licht" is a cognate of "light" and "durch" of "through", and both are common words in German and English, respectively.
Weird, isn't it? :)
We have got so much from Latin and Greek<<
In short: what makes English Germanic is its basic word stock, phonology, morphology and syntax, which are all definitely like those of Germanic, not those of Romance languages (even if English syntax has for some part been influenced by French). I wouldn't say English is "related" to French, even if it has a huge number of French (and Latin) loanwords. "Relatedness" is not something that depends on a similar general vocabulary alone (except the very basic one), but also on morphology, and systematic differences between languages classed in the same group.
Thus, to take an extreme example, the full name behind the abbreviation "laser", "Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation", or for AIDS, "Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome" is Germanic, not Romance because of the morphemes "by" and "of" (the latter being related to Swedish "av", not Romance "de") and, in both cases, the ending "-ed" (cognate of German "-te" and Scandinavian "-ad"). Since these morphemes occur in countless other English sentences, they definitely link the language to the Germanic family.
This is true even if in the case of AIDS, all words of the French version SIDA are cognates of the English ones ("Syndrome d'immuno-déficience acquise"), and in the case of "laser", most words are of French/Latin origin (it would be "alers" when abbreviated in French: "Amplification de lumière par émission de radiation stimulée").
Moreover, the English name is Germanic even if the German name would be "Lichtverstärkung durch stimulierte Emission der Strahlung" (or something like this). Although the German sentence bears almost no similarity to the English one on the surface (save for two identical words borrowed from Latin), it is still related to English, for the reason that "licht" is a cognate of "light" and "durch" of "through", and both are common words in German and English, respectively.
Weird, isn't it? :)