I have never studied phonetics in the School neither in the university.
Bias Toward Multilinguals?
>>I don't particularly agree with Mr. Steve Kaufman's method for learning languages(He doesn't put so much emphasis on learning grammar) but he does what most linguists CANNOT or DON'T WANT to do: He learns the languages and uses them without fearing and I respect him for that. How can you explain that someone speaks 9 languages without any linguistic theory?
Although I study linguistics on and off too during my studies, without a proper linguistics major of any kind, I do see that... linguistics theories can usually give you academic insights into how language works, but not quite into how you can actually learn a language to become a competent, sociable person who can deal with foreigners.
But just for the sake of having more substantial grounds for discussions, in forums, for example, I prefer using theories (though not my own, but of others) from this field. It's pointless to discuss online only with descriptions like "so I got to this country, stay for some time, and I get better and better at all kinds of skills..." This kind of descriptions, I think, is better put in other places like Xanga/Facebook where you can describe your life abroad in a chit-chatty style. In short, I like to use theories to explain. Technical details are sometimes much better for academic discussions like antimoon.
In daily life, I did hear of such stories above "so I got better and better after some time...". For me, this is hardly convincing, especially when it's told by someone who seemed to be bragging.
However, I do think that discussions CAN be meaningful without technical details. Like how I put my story in Germany. I don't need language acquisition to explain it. I just need to give you objective evidence: how the Germans commented on my German, how I felt at the language course, what I actually did with German in Germany, etc. And I can tell you now: although I don't feel conversational in German, I can manage things like buying train tickets in Germans (to staff members or to a vending machine) with some difficulties with those specialized vocab. But generally, with the aid of English, I don't great problems with tickets. I also know how to google for hostel rooms and train tickets in both German and English. I can't use German all the time, but I can at least read a lot of German to get the easy descriptions. I can't do this at all in French. I even visited a doctor (for my cold) in both German and English. I never consulted a foreign doctor before.
Although I study linguistics on and off too during my studies, without a proper linguistics major of any kind, I do see that... linguistics theories can usually give you academic insights into how language works, but not quite into how you can actually learn a language to become a competent, sociable person who can deal with foreigners.
But just for the sake of having more substantial grounds for discussions, in forums, for example, I prefer using theories (though not my own, but of others) from this field. It's pointless to discuss online only with descriptions like "so I got to this country, stay for some time, and I get better and better at all kinds of skills..." This kind of descriptions, I think, is better put in other places like Xanga/Facebook where you can describe your life abroad in a chit-chatty style. In short, I like to use theories to explain. Technical details are sometimes much better for academic discussions like antimoon.
In daily life, I did hear of such stories above "so I got better and better after some time...". For me, this is hardly convincing, especially when it's told by someone who seemed to be bragging.
However, I do think that discussions CAN be meaningful without technical details. Like how I put my story in Germany. I don't need language acquisition to explain it. I just need to give you objective evidence: how the Germans commented on my German, how I felt at the language course, what I actually did with German in Germany, etc. And I can tell you now: although I don't feel conversational in German, I can manage things like buying train tickets in Germans (to staff members or to a vending machine) with some difficulties with those specialized vocab. But generally, with the aid of English, I don't great problems with tickets. I also know how to google for hostel rooms and train tickets in both German and English. I can't use German all the time, but I can at least read a lot of German to get the easy descriptions. I can't do this at all in French. I even visited a doctor (for my cold) in both German and English. I never consulted a foreign doctor before.
"I have never studied phonetics in the School neither in the university."
Good for you!!! :) Why study something you're not interested in or don't feel like you need?
For me it was interesting because I could learn sounds of languages I probably will never learn like Xhosa, Hindi and Arabic. It was also helpful when teaching Portuguese to Japanese who can't distinguish between b and v but most learned it right away after learning that b is bilabial and v is a labio-dental sound. Of course some people didn't need this explanation to learn these sounds or do something more complicated like distinguishing open/close vowels like the "e" in the words "seu"(yours) and "céu" (sky) or the difference in the vowel "o" in "pode" (he can) and "pôde" (he could)
The biggest challenge, however, was to teach the Japanese how to say the consonant "L".
Cheers!!
Good for you!!! :) Why study something you're not interested in or don't feel like you need?
For me it was interesting because I could learn sounds of languages I probably will never learn like Xhosa, Hindi and Arabic. It was also helpful when teaching Portuguese to Japanese who can't distinguish between b and v but most learned it right away after learning that b is bilabial and v is a labio-dental sound. Of course some people didn't need this explanation to learn these sounds or do something more complicated like distinguishing open/close vowels like the "e" in the words "seu"(yours) and "céu" (sky) or the difference in the vowel "o" in "pode" (he can) and "pôde" (he could)
The biggest challenge, however, was to teach the Japanese how to say the consonant "L".
Cheers!!
Xie, your English has improved a lot since you first started posting here. At first I found your posts almost incomprehensible (no offense), but now they make perfect sense to me, although there are still some minor mistakes, like "This kind of descriptions" (should be "description"). How did you get so much better at English when you're studying German?
"how the Germans commented on my German, how I felt at the language course, what I actually did with German in Germany, etc. And I can tell you now: although I don't feel conversational in German, I can manage things like buying train tickets in Germans (to staff members or to a vending machine) with some difficulties with those specialized vocab. "
@Xie: Wie geht's? Du konntest uns über deine Erfahrung in Deutschland erzählen :) Anyway, I'm glad to hear you're making progress which has been evaluated by the people who know best how the language works: native speakers.
What's your overall view of your improvement other than your enhanced comprehension. Are you living in a region where people speak dialects? Did you learn ny cool slangs? If so please let me know since my German is all from "Sprachkurs Deutsch","Mittelstufe Deutsch" and "Auf neuen Wegen" :D
Tschüß und ich wünsche dir Alles Gute in deinem Studium der Deutschen Sprache.
@Xie: Wie geht's? Du konntest uns über deine Erfahrung in Deutschland erzählen :) Anyway, I'm glad to hear you're making progress which has been evaluated by the people who know best how the language works: native speakers.
What's your overall view of your improvement other than your enhanced comprehension. Are you living in a region where people speak dialects? Did you learn ny cool slangs? If so please let me know since my German is all from "Sprachkurs Deutsch","Mittelstufe Deutsch" and "Auf neuen Wegen" :D
Tschüß und ich wünsche dir Alles Gute in deinem Studium der Deutschen Sprache.
I've observed so many girls who have far less interest than guys in languages. But in practice, guys' verbal ability can be really far poorer at times.
In my country lots of gay men are really interested in languages and I'm one of them....IoI Most of the guys who learn languages at university are gay....
In my country lots of gay men are really interested in languages and I'm one of them....IoI Most of the guys who learn languages at university are gay....
>>"I have never studied phonetics in the School neither in the university."
Good for you!!! :) Why study something you're not interested in or don't feel like you need?
This isn't necessarily a fact. I didn't take phonetics either (didn't take linguistics as a major either, see above), but I bet I can pronounce things more clearly than some of those I know that did it as major students. At university, I learned that you don't need a course in order to know the very subject of it. I won't describe others, but linguistics is definitely one such major. There are topics you can do entirely outside university, simply by reading. I don't need all such trash as giving a presentation with others, writing multiple meaningless term papers... well, of course, sometimes you may find it useful to WRITE a term paper, yes. But, general, there's no absolute prerequisite to doing a topic at an advanced level in terms of a course. You can do a thesis on pragmatics without having taken any directly related courses. In Hong Kong, it's a common understanding that you only need money to do an M.A. I'm not saying that linguistics isn't worth studying as a bachelor major, but certainly there are people who simply skipped the bachelor in order to become a linguistics master.
>>Xie, your English has improved a lot since you first started posting here. At first I found your posts almost incomprehensible (no offense), but now they make perfect sense to me, although there are still some minor mistakes, like "This kind of descriptions" (should be "description"). How did you get so much better at English when you're studying German?
I wrote whatever I wanted. I can follow the English of some fellow non-natives perfectly, but they are certainly having heavy accents. Some of them simply have an incomprehensible accent without much vocab.
Ironically, I ended up finding German not a very interesting language to speak. They offered English very quickly when they saw you paid your effort and couldn't advance any more. (Well, people might have an even harder time with Chinese people... but WHO on earth really cares about Chinese anyway? They're either limited to Chinese departments around the globe or are already in my country. I can't help having this idea. For quite a long time.) They're just slower than the Dutch/Belgians, etc with this.
>>What's your overall view of your improvement other than your enhanced comprehension. Are you living in a region where people speak dialects? Did you learn ny cool slangs? If so please let me know since my German is all from "Sprachkurs Deutsch","Mittelstufe Deutsch" and "Auf neuen Wegen" :D
Hi JC. It is, but I only know one word, which is zwe (for zwei). The dialect (guess which) is largely unintelligible to me. I can remember "mal gucken" at best, but this is just hochdeutsch. Well, I was rejected by an excuse like this. Germany, while having a relaxing environment to live (well, only Hong Kong and a lot of places in China are polluted like hell), isn't really very interesting for socializing, during my stay.
It all depends. If I live/study with young Germans who are actually Chinese majors, my life would have been much easier and more interesting. I know, it's all very personal. But exactly, personally, my topics are too Chinese to share with others. Just imagine how boring my "world" is, when everything is all about German life (minus popular image of German life, minus my own interests, almost everything)... or about other cultures, especially the Anglo-American... if I tell my fellow Chinese counterparts, some might well "criticize" me for not even trying to understand Anglo-American stuff (through movies, songs, anything in the mass media) to socialize with the Germans. Yes, it is, I can see the points. But so what? Well, really, I personally didn't fit in quite well, despite my notably higher command of German. I'm still, given my present level, far from the German life. How can you understand this country well without the ability to read those famous magazines, novels, newspapers and so on? Then, naturally, guys who bumped into me talked about the Chinese communists all over again. What a mundane political discussion. They had nothing interesting to say. It's unlike how they chatted with the French and Americans, for example, by talking about food and sex and stuff like that. Can't they talk about Chinese food?
They just don't understand. At large, in many cases they simply have no concept/idea of what I'm thinking about. A modest Chinese guy would simply be regarded as a shy guy. Many things are judged unfairly, and I couldn't explain well, and later on didn't bother to. It'd be a good idea NOT to think that "my culture is thousand-year old and it's your fault not to be understanding". But it is, many aren't REALLY understanding. It's a pity.
Luckily, people, especially those of European descent and with a better understanding of the Chinese, also tended to be more understanding. They know the very cultural sensitivities of the Chinese (and I of themselves). I think the main reason is people, especially Anglophones, the French, etc, have far more contact with Chinese people than the Germans and non-Europeans/Americans.
Anyway, my conclusion is just that, while I don't always appreciate the "Western" culture (Anglophone, French, German, all included, among others), I got the feeling that they're very tolerant (culturally) of others and they offer more freedom (in thinking) even than fellow Chinese. But as a matter of fact, I find it much more comfortable to associate with non-Chinese who are sympathetic with the Chinese, even if they don't learn my language and don't eat Chinese stuff.
And what's more, I might have been notable for 1) speaking English/German better than many others, Europeans/Americans included but 2) having very little understanding and interest of "western" pop culture, and so on. I must really learn better. But having that said, I don't consider it an absolute necessity to LEARN that much through watching millions of Hollywood movies. Naturally, we Chinese have a lot that foreigners never really understand, one good example being our langauge per se. Naturally, we Chinese don't really understand a lot of foreign cultures, either. Come on, we all just have one life. One life isn't really enough for all those cultures.
And even if I talk about something like "dating a non-Chinese", despite all my identities, I'd now say that culture is very important. If someone just doesn't even understand why the chinese behave as they do in daily life, I can't even maintain conversations with her from time to time. It doesn't help, either, even if I speak English or German like a native. Linguistic ability doesn't always include cultural competency and stuff like that.
I don't know if this is true, and if I look like jumping to conclusions quickly: in fact, although I do think the Chinese have in general so many cultural subtleties that people, especially VERY direct people like some Africans, would be freaked out, given that my country would be re-gaining its relative importance in the world (compared to 200 years ago, historically), it'd be a HUGE loss of non-Chinese, especially language learners, to miss out my culture. You don't need to learn Chinese, but...I find it a good idea to understand its people.
Good for you!!! :) Why study something you're not interested in or don't feel like you need?
This isn't necessarily a fact. I didn't take phonetics either (didn't take linguistics as a major either, see above), but I bet I can pronounce things more clearly than some of those I know that did it as major students. At university, I learned that you don't need a course in order to know the very subject of it. I won't describe others, but linguistics is definitely one such major. There are topics you can do entirely outside university, simply by reading. I don't need all such trash as giving a presentation with others, writing multiple meaningless term papers... well, of course, sometimes you may find it useful to WRITE a term paper, yes. But, general, there's no absolute prerequisite to doing a topic at an advanced level in terms of a course. You can do a thesis on pragmatics without having taken any directly related courses. In Hong Kong, it's a common understanding that you only need money to do an M.A. I'm not saying that linguistics isn't worth studying as a bachelor major, but certainly there are people who simply skipped the bachelor in order to become a linguistics master.
>>Xie, your English has improved a lot since you first started posting here. At first I found your posts almost incomprehensible (no offense), but now they make perfect sense to me, although there are still some minor mistakes, like "This kind of descriptions" (should be "description"). How did you get so much better at English when you're studying German?
I wrote whatever I wanted. I can follow the English of some fellow non-natives perfectly, but they are certainly having heavy accents. Some of them simply have an incomprehensible accent without much vocab.
Ironically, I ended up finding German not a very interesting language to speak. They offered English very quickly when they saw you paid your effort and couldn't advance any more. (Well, people might have an even harder time with Chinese people... but WHO on earth really cares about Chinese anyway? They're either limited to Chinese departments around the globe or are already in my country. I can't help having this idea. For quite a long time.) They're just slower than the Dutch/Belgians, etc with this.
>>What's your overall view of your improvement other than your enhanced comprehension. Are you living in a region where people speak dialects? Did you learn ny cool slangs? If so please let me know since my German is all from "Sprachkurs Deutsch","Mittelstufe Deutsch" and "Auf neuen Wegen" :D
Hi JC. It is, but I only know one word, which is zwe (for zwei). The dialect (guess which) is largely unintelligible to me. I can remember "mal gucken" at best, but this is just hochdeutsch. Well, I was rejected by an excuse like this. Germany, while having a relaxing environment to live (well, only Hong Kong and a lot of places in China are polluted like hell), isn't really very interesting for socializing, during my stay.
It all depends. If I live/study with young Germans who are actually Chinese majors, my life would have been much easier and more interesting. I know, it's all very personal. But exactly, personally, my topics are too Chinese to share with others. Just imagine how boring my "world" is, when everything is all about German life (minus popular image of German life, minus my own interests, almost everything)... or about other cultures, especially the Anglo-American... if I tell my fellow Chinese counterparts, some might well "criticize" me for not even trying to understand Anglo-American stuff (through movies, songs, anything in the mass media) to socialize with the Germans. Yes, it is, I can see the points. But so what? Well, really, I personally didn't fit in quite well, despite my notably higher command of German. I'm still, given my present level, far from the German life. How can you understand this country well without the ability to read those famous magazines, novels, newspapers and so on? Then, naturally, guys who bumped into me talked about the Chinese communists all over again. What a mundane political discussion. They had nothing interesting to say. It's unlike how they chatted with the French and Americans, for example, by talking about food and sex and stuff like that. Can't they talk about Chinese food?
They just don't understand. At large, in many cases they simply have no concept/idea of what I'm thinking about. A modest Chinese guy would simply be regarded as a shy guy. Many things are judged unfairly, and I couldn't explain well, and later on didn't bother to. It'd be a good idea NOT to think that "my culture is thousand-year old and it's your fault not to be understanding". But it is, many aren't REALLY understanding. It's a pity.
Luckily, people, especially those of European descent and with a better understanding of the Chinese, also tended to be more understanding. They know the very cultural sensitivities of the Chinese (and I of themselves). I think the main reason is people, especially Anglophones, the French, etc, have far more contact with Chinese people than the Germans and non-Europeans/Americans.
Anyway, my conclusion is just that, while I don't always appreciate the "Western" culture (Anglophone, French, German, all included, among others), I got the feeling that they're very tolerant (culturally) of others and they offer more freedom (in thinking) even than fellow Chinese. But as a matter of fact, I find it much more comfortable to associate with non-Chinese who are sympathetic with the Chinese, even if they don't learn my language and don't eat Chinese stuff.
And what's more, I might have been notable for 1) speaking English/German better than many others, Europeans/Americans included but 2) having very little understanding and interest of "western" pop culture, and so on. I must really learn better. But having that said, I don't consider it an absolute necessity to LEARN that much through watching millions of Hollywood movies. Naturally, we Chinese have a lot that foreigners never really understand, one good example being our langauge per se. Naturally, we Chinese don't really understand a lot of foreign cultures, either. Come on, we all just have one life. One life isn't really enough for all those cultures.
And even if I talk about something like "dating a non-Chinese", despite all my identities, I'd now say that culture is very important. If someone just doesn't even understand why the chinese behave as they do in daily life, I can't even maintain conversations with her from time to time. It doesn't help, either, even if I speak English or German like a native. Linguistic ability doesn't always include cultural competency and stuff like that.
I don't know if this is true, and if I look like jumping to conclusions quickly: in fact, although I do think the Chinese have in general so many cultural subtleties that people, especially VERY direct people like some Africans, would be freaked out, given that my country would be re-gaining its relative importance in the world (compared to 200 years ago, historically), it'd be a HUGE loss of non-Chinese, especially language learners, to miss out my culture. You don't need to learn Chinese, but...I find it a good idea to understand its people.
>>Can't they talk about Chinese food?
The fact is that most Chinese are monolingual and can't reduce their language down to something (or dumb down) that you can't understand instantly like how you understand daily life English. When they don't understand, they don't ask but just start scrutinizing people like me. And some asked weird questions like whether we cooked fish eyes.
In fact, it's not just about "Chinese culture". If a person is open-minded about cultures, s/he should also be able to be "understanding". To put it simply, at least s/he will try to be nice to foreigners. This isn't directed at Germans I met, but many non-chinese in general. The Germans, they can introduce their culture to everybody in English, immediately understood by other European peoples/North Americans, and just a bit more slowly by us Chinese. The Chinese, they can spend days lecturing about their culture in English again, but very few are really interested, or their faces start to scrutinize them. I once commented on an American that..."you have more topics to share with others, since everybody knows American culture, or at least a bit of it. And you speak English natively, more people like to practice with you." This isn't true for me. Isn't true for some European peoples, either. That's why I sometimes still compare Chinese (1.3 billions) with things like Finnish (5+ millions). (I did meet a couple of nice Finns, though learning their language is quite a remote possibility)
Yes, all such are going to be difficult all the time. That's why, whenever I did meet nice Germans, I'd be glad to tell them "I learned the Latin alphabet (with English) when I was 3, though it isn't my native script", "I started with English at 3, though I won't claim to be an English native, despite my apparent level."
The fact is that most Chinese are monolingual and can't reduce their language down to something (or dumb down) that you can't understand instantly like how you understand daily life English. When they don't understand, they don't ask but just start scrutinizing people like me. And some asked weird questions like whether we cooked fish eyes.
In fact, it's not just about "Chinese culture". If a person is open-minded about cultures, s/he should also be able to be "understanding". To put it simply, at least s/he will try to be nice to foreigners. This isn't directed at Germans I met, but many non-chinese in general. The Germans, they can introduce their culture to everybody in English, immediately understood by other European peoples/North Americans, and just a bit more slowly by us Chinese. The Chinese, they can spend days lecturing about their culture in English again, but very few are really interested, or their faces start to scrutinize them. I once commented on an American that..."you have more topics to share with others, since everybody knows American culture, or at least a bit of it. And you speak English natively, more people like to practice with you." This isn't true for me. Isn't true for some European peoples, either. That's why I sometimes still compare Chinese (1.3 billions) with things like Finnish (5+ millions). (I did meet a couple of nice Finns, though learning their language is quite a remote possibility)
Yes, all such are going to be difficult all the time. That's why, whenever I did meet nice Germans, I'd be glad to tell them "I learned the Latin alphabet (with English) when I was 3, though it isn't my native script", "I started with English at 3, though I won't claim to be an English native, despite my apparent level."
Pardon me for messing up my writing once again... I write sloppily sometimes.
One more point, the thing I'm most dis-satisfied with: language problem. OK, OK, yeah, yeah (American accent), it's perfectly OK that you don't learn Chinese. I don't learn many languages too. Among them, I've only picked up English and German and French. No Finnish, no Dutch, no other Asian stuff and so on. But I find it very condescending to criticize my English, when I've shown clearly that I'm not really a native, nor have I been born and raised in any English-speaking countries, nor anything.
Here is the story: I won't provide exact details. But. The thing is, both some Anglophones and some non-natives criticized my ability to understand English. First, I'm not really a native. Second, I'm not culturally competent when I tell you that I don't understand. For example, if I don't understand a word related to ethnicity, it's not my fault, when I'm clearly a Chinese person NOT from North America or anything. But it was. These English speakings, and even some fellow Chinese from Hong Kong, criticized my English ability. I tried to be understanding, but come on, I'm not a native and there's no absolute guarantee that I can understand everything, even if it's about ethnicity and race and politeness and so on. If I don't understand, I just don't understand. I'm in fact most disappointed by having been criticized by fellow Chinese.
And the ethnic word I'm talking about is ebonic/ebonics/ebony. I think people here know what it is. I learned it after being criticized. The main point is: people, even including some Chinese, criticized a Chinese guy for not knowing English. In other words, everybody must know enough English to be an "understanding" person. In other words, this Chinese guy was supposed to be very fluent in English, otherwise he'd be antagonizing everybody. This is hugely unfair.
My viewpoint: Chinese people don't normally know English, nor are we supposed to know English. If you can, speak Chinese until you have nothing left to say. I know English just because I learned it, not because I MUST learn it to fulfill your desires. I don't have to be culturally competent for the same purpose, either. There are certainly some basic rules of socializing across all peoples, but again, I'm not supposed to know everything. Particularly, I'm not supposed, either, to know how westerners/white people/Europeans/North Americans, etc, socialize. Chinese people of Chinese background socialize in Chinese ways. Only really pathetic Chinese do things like this against other Chinese for some xenophilia. For the same reasons, in Germany, I don't assume any English from any Germans, and I'll go on with German until I have nothing left, and until they start to offer English. Just as what I do when meeting new Chinese acquaintances, I'll at least try to be polite, in any cultural ways, whatever, with new German acquaintances. Of course, as I met more Germans, I also knew better how to meet them.
One more point, the thing I'm most dis-satisfied with: language problem. OK, OK, yeah, yeah (American accent), it's perfectly OK that you don't learn Chinese. I don't learn many languages too. Among them, I've only picked up English and German and French. No Finnish, no Dutch, no other Asian stuff and so on. But I find it very condescending to criticize my English, when I've shown clearly that I'm not really a native, nor have I been born and raised in any English-speaking countries, nor anything.
Here is the story: I won't provide exact details. But. The thing is, both some Anglophones and some non-natives criticized my ability to understand English. First, I'm not really a native. Second, I'm not culturally competent when I tell you that I don't understand. For example, if I don't understand a word related to ethnicity, it's not my fault, when I'm clearly a Chinese person NOT from North America or anything. But it was. These English speakings, and even some fellow Chinese from Hong Kong, criticized my English ability. I tried to be understanding, but come on, I'm not a native and there's no absolute guarantee that I can understand everything, even if it's about ethnicity and race and politeness and so on. If I don't understand, I just don't understand. I'm in fact most disappointed by having been criticized by fellow Chinese.
And the ethnic word I'm talking about is ebonic/ebonics/ebony. I think people here know what it is. I learned it after being criticized. The main point is: people, even including some Chinese, criticized a Chinese guy for not knowing English. In other words, everybody must know enough English to be an "understanding" person. In other words, this Chinese guy was supposed to be very fluent in English, otherwise he'd be antagonizing everybody. This is hugely unfair.
My viewpoint: Chinese people don't normally know English, nor are we supposed to know English. If you can, speak Chinese until you have nothing left to say. I know English just because I learned it, not because I MUST learn it to fulfill your desires. I don't have to be culturally competent for the same purpose, either. There are certainly some basic rules of socializing across all peoples, but again, I'm not supposed to know everything. Particularly, I'm not supposed, either, to know how westerners/white people/Europeans/North Americans, etc, socialize. Chinese people of Chinese background socialize in Chinese ways. Only really pathetic Chinese do things like this against other Chinese for some xenophilia. For the same reasons, in Germany, I don't assume any English from any Germans, and I'll go on with German until I have nothing left, and until they start to offer English. Just as what I do when meeting new Chinese acquaintances, I'll at least try to be polite, in any cultural ways, whatever, with new German acquaintances. Of course, as I met more Germans, I also knew better how to meet them.
Darn. I missed my topic sentence:
I don't like the fact that some people (especially Anglophones) expect English from everybody, to the extent of being condescending.
Second, I don't like the fact that some people (especially Hong Kong Chinese) expect WESTERN cultural competency from everybody, to the extent of criticizing their fellow non-natives.
Does the world have to be so western that I must remain yellow (in Chinese terms, it just means Asian) and speak white and think white? I think that, at least, a Chinese person who is fluent in at least one European language, is cultured, is good-mannered, is liberal, is mature, is "truly Westernized, essentially with an open mind", and so on, would not criticize other Chinese in such a way. Some cultural tendencies of some Hong Kong Chinese are simply downright ... well. It all just boils down to one thing: politeness. I was unlucky.
I don't like the fact that some people (especially Anglophones) expect English from everybody, to the extent of being condescending.
Second, I don't like the fact that some people (especially Hong Kong Chinese) expect WESTERN cultural competency from everybody, to the extent of criticizing their fellow non-natives.
Does the world have to be so western that I must remain yellow (in Chinese terms, it just means Asian) and speak white and think white? I think that, at least, a Chinese person who is fluent in at least one European language, is cultured, is good-mannered, is liberal, is mature, is "truly Westernized, essentially with an open mind", and so on, would not criticize other Chinese in such a way. Some cultural tendencies of some Hong Kong Chinese are simply downright ... well. It all just boils down to one thing: politeness. I was unlucky.
I probably should have posted this as "Bias Against Multilinguals?" in order to underline the subtle "freaks of nature" (unless you are European, I guess) feeling about this theory or hypothesis or rumor going around about multilinguals.
"American" I don't know the original source for this, but Loraine K. Obler may have something to do with it. You can read more about this on the internet. "The Exceptional Brain" and "Amazon" will probably take you to where you can read more about this.
However, I've seen this come up in a discussion on the Learning Languages site (started by someone in the UK), on a recent questionnaire, on more than one blog or article on the internet. It's even been discussed at Antimoon before.
I suppose people want back-up for who they are and how they ended up as hyperpolyglots, so they go looking for their tribe on the internet by trying to link how they are with others. I know that if I look for people with similar characteristics to myself, I often find someone with my interests on the internet with a blog or a site. That's how I found this accursed site, lol, looking up lexical similarity or mutual intelligibility between languages.
This brings me to definitions. Hyperpolyglots are multilinguals with six languages. I think this is the wiki definition from the person who coined the term "hyperpolyglot"...
Except for the article I read in German on a Greek polyglot and translator or interpreter-a big number polyglot who changed religions as he learned languages- who was gay, I don't know of any gay hyperpolyglots. Maybe the "Born on a Blue Day" author-D.T., but I don't know either personally.
Everyone I know who is a hyperpolyglot is NOT gay and I mean people who know at least seven languages. I cannot verify that they have no gay tendencies, but since they are married to people of the opposite gender, or similar circumstances (widowed, perhaps), I would not see them as "gay".
Then there is the muddy definition of what being multilingual or a polyglot is. Should someone who knows two living languages, a conlang and four "dead" languages be considered a hyperpolyglot?
And there is the mixed usage with hands idea and being left-handed.
We could come up with many traits. Some would fit some multilinguals, but some would not.
If you merely look at some of the internet polyglots-Steve Kaufmann, Luca the Italian, Professor Arguelles, Stu Jay Raj- they mention wives or a girlfriend.
Where are all these male, left-handed, learning disabled, gay hyperpolyglots? Are they modestly hiding somewhere? I hope it isn't something like "starting speaking late in life, hates math" type of disability.
We don't need a book or research paper that pigeonholes people in a certain way." Lefties and Gay Men Like Languages" and "Straight Men and Right-handers Like Nascar"- that will do nothing to encourage a larger group of people to learn a second language, only reinforce new stereotypes.
"American" I don't know the original source for this, but Loraine K. Obler may have something to do with it. You can read more about this on the internet. "The Exceptional Brain" and "Amazon" will probably take you to where you can read more about this.
However, I've seen this come up in a discussion on the Learning Languages site (started by someone in the UK), on a recent questionnaire, on more than one blog or article on the internet. It's even been discussed at Antimoon before.
I suppose people want back-up for who they are and how they ended up as hyperpolyglots, so they go looking for their tribe on the internet by trying to link how they are with others. I know that if I look for people with similar characteristics to myself, I often find someone with my interests on the internet with a blog or a site. That's how I found this accursed site, lol, looking up lexical similarity or mutual intelligibility between languages.
This brings me to definitions. Hyperpolyglots are multilinguals with six languages. I think this is the wiki definition from the person who coined the term "hyperpolyglot"...
Except for the article I read in German on a Greek polyglot and translator or interpreter-a big number polyglot who changed religions as he learned languages- who was gay, I don't know of any gay hyperpolyglots. Maybe the "Born on a Blue Day" author-D.T., but I don't know either personally.
Everyone I know who is a hyperpolyglot is NOT gay and I mean people who know at least seven languages. I cannot verify that they have no gay tendencies, but since they are married to people of the opposite gender, or similar circumstances (widowed, perhaps), I would not see them as "gay".
Then there is the muddy definition of what being multilingual or a polyglot is. Should someone who knows two living languages, a conlang and four "dead" languages be considered a hyperpolyglot?
And there is the mixed usage with hands idea and being left-handed.
We could come up with many traits. Some would fit some multilinguals, but some would not.
If you merely look at some of the internet polyglots-Steve Kaufmann, Luca the Italian, Professor Arguelles, Stu Jay Raj- they mention wives or a girlfriend.
Where are all these male, left-handed, learning disabled, gay hyperpolyglots? Are they modestly hiding somewhere? I hope it isn't something like "starting speaking late in life, hates math" type of disability.
We don't need a book or research paper that pigeonholes people in a certain way." Lefties and Gay Men Like Languages" and "Straight Men and Right-handers Like Nascar"- that will do nothing to encourage a larger group of people to learn a second language, only reinforce new stereotypes.
I don't want to discourage research. Certainly, Ms. Obler wrote about some very interesting ideas, but when other people start grabbing onto reasearch and posting it as nearly a fact of nature in language-learning, then I see it as counterproductive. This is only my opinion. I hope that more people will learn languages, start polyglot clubs, and break out of some of their prejudice about other cultures if only in a small way.
"Does the world have to be so western that I must remain yellow (in Chinese terms, it just means Asian) and speak white and think white?"
-Xie
I heard one asian man describe himself as a "Banana"-I'm not kidding.
To him, he thought "white", looked "yellow", but he isn't the only Asian who felt that they were "white" on the inside, but "yellow" on the outside.
I think it goes with speaking the language. People think that if you speak a language well, then you know the culture well.
This can be a huge assumption and wrong! I speak Spanish, but I certainly do not know all the customs of people in Central America. I speak English, but I would be sure to miss some things about the culture in Ireland and Scotland.
-Xie
I heard one asian man describe himself as a "Banana"-I'm not kidding.
To him, he thought "white", looked "yellow", but he isn't the only Asian who felt that they were "white" on the inside, but "yellow" on the outside.
I think it goes with speaking the language. People think that if you speak a language well, then you know the culture well.
This can be a huge assumption and wrong! I speak Spanish, but I certainly do not know all the customs of people in Central America. I speak English, but I would be sure to miss some things about the culture in Ireland and Scotland.
"How did you get so much better at English when you're studying German?"-guest
I've been wondering the same thing.
I've been wondering the same thing.