Out of those, only "tune" and "toon" sound the same in American English. You don't seem to have much linguistic knowledge.
British speakers: pronunciation of "primarily"
I wouldn't call those "pseudoelegant" forms...here's a secret: that's actually how they speak!
It *might* be pseudoelegant for an American who says "tune" and "toon" the same all the time suddenly starts using "tyoon" because he wants to. In America at least, where the change is happening, the more conservative form is naturally going to seem more "elegant", regardless of its being the norm everywhere else.
But as blanc said "suit" and "soot" are different because "soot" has a lax vowel, and "news" and "noose" are different in voicing in the final consonant.
Better examples might be "dew" and "do", "new" and "nu" (the Greek letter), "pew" and "poo", etc.
It *might* be pseudoelegant for an American who says "tune" and "toon" the same all the time suddenly starts using "tyoon" because he wants to. In America at least, where the change is happening, the more conservative form is naturally going to seem more "elegant", regardless of its being the norm everywhere else.
But as blanc said "suit" and "soot" are different because "soot" has a lax vowel, and "news" and "noose" are different in voicing in the final consonant.
Better examples might be "dew" and "do", "new" and "nu" (the Greek letter), "pew" and "poo", etc.
<<I prefer syoot, so as not to make the words 'suit' and 'soot', 'tune' and 'toon', 'news' and 'noose', etc. homonymous.
There is something called enunciation, Kendra. >>
There's something called picking better examples, Woozle. Tune and toon are the same for many (not all) Americans,and that's something called yod-dropping. But news and noose have different ending sounds (Z and S), and suit and soot have different vowels.
<<Better examples might be "dew" and "do", "new" and "nu" (the Greek letter), "pew" and "poo", etc. >>
With you on the first two, but not that last one -- pew is pronounced "pyoo", not "poo".
There is something called enunciation, Kendra. >>
There's something called picking better examples, Woozle. Tune and toon are the same for many (not all) Americans,and that's something called yod-dropping. But news and noose have different ending sounds (Z and S), and suit and soot have different vowels.
<<Better examples might be "dew" and "do", "new" and "nu" (the Greek letter), "pew" and "poo", etc. >>
With you on the first two, but not that last one -- pew is pronounced "pyoo", not "poo".
Thanks for catching that, Uriel. Got a little carried away there. I started just thinking of words that are different, rather than words that are different but also the same for some people.
I am enjoying this conversation immensely.
I grew up on the isogloss between Southern Inland English and Appalachian English. The pronunciation of "stupid" as "styoopid", et. al. was used only by the rankest, lowest-classed hillbillies, and marked them as such the moment they opened their mouths.
It amuses me endlessly to see Englishmen classify this speech anamoly as the height of correct enunciation.
I grew up on the isogloss between Southern Inland English and Appalachian English. The pronunciation of "stupid" as "styoopid", et. al. was used only by the rankest, lowest-classed hillbillies, and marked them as such the moment they opened their mouths.
It amuses me endlessly to see Englishmen classify this speech anamoly as the height of correct enunciation.
<<It amuses me endlessly to see Englishmen classify this speech anamoly as the height of correct enunciation.>>
I'm not English, so correct me if I'm wrong: I don't think Englishmen view it as the height of correct enunciation...rather just as the *only* pronunciation. Yod-dropping happened in America, but not in most (if not all) dialects of the British isles. So they draw a very real distinction between the words "toon" and "tune", just like they do "caught" and "cot". Since no one merges "toon" and "tune", pronouncing the latter as "tyoon" isn't anything special, like it might be in the US.
That said, it's interesting that a number of non-US dialects have started pronouncing "tune" something like "choon", and saying "choozday" for Tuesday.
I'm not English, so correct me if I'm wrong: I don't think Englishmen view it as the height of correct enunciation...rather just as the *only* pronunciation. Yod-dropping happened in America, but not in most (if not all) dialects of the British isles. So they draw a very real distinction between the words "toon" and "tune", just like they do "caught" and "cot". Since no one merges "toon" and "tune", pronouncing the latter as "tyoon" isn't anything special, like it might be in the US.
That said, it's interesting that a number of non-US dialects have started pronouncing "tune" something like "choon", and saying "choozday" for Tuesday.
It *might* be pseudoelegant for an American who says "tune" and "toon" the same all the time suddenly starts using "tyoon" because he wants to.
//
Lady Gaga rhymes stupid with cupid. That's soooo weird.
//
Lady Gaga rhymes stupid with cupid. That's soooo weird.
<<I grew up on the isogloss between Southern Inland English and Appalachian English. The pronunciation of "stupid" as "styoopid", et. al. was used only by the rankest, lowest-classed hillbillies, and marked them as such the moment they opened their mouths. >>
That is the DAMN truth, isn't it, Jasper! I've noticed that more and more as I've spent more time on international forums with Brits and Aussies; they have a LOT in common with rednecks and hillbillies, speech-wise. And I suppose it makes sense from a historical perspective. Many Southerners, especially Appalachians, trace their lineage back to the Scots-Irish, or Scotch-Irish as we call them here.
This site gives a good overview of the classic immigration pattern:
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/america/scots_irish.htm
"Scots-Irish immigrants came from the historic province of Ulster (in the north of Ireland). Scottish settlers began to come in large numbers to Ulster in the early decades of the 1600s. James I, the English monarch, sought to solidify control by transferring land ownership to Protestants and by settling their lands with Protestant tenants (English and Scottish). Scottish settlers continued to come to Ireland throughout the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.
Many of the earliest Scots-Irish immigrants (of the 1720s and 1730s) first settled in Pennsylvania. Many then moved down from Pennsylvania into Virginia and the Carolinas. From there immigrants and their descendants went on to populate the states of Georgia, Kentucky, and Tennessee in the 1780s and 1790s.
There are a myriad of possible reasons for the immigration of so many of the Scots-Irish to America in the 1700s. High rents and religious persecution have often been blamed. Most of the Scots-Irish came freely to the American colonies, although there were also some who were deported as prisoners or came as indentured servants. Others came with British Army regiments and remained in the American colonies."
For non-Americans, the people in this region of the US, especially in mountainous Appalachia, have a reputation for being tough, stubborn, isolated, highly conservative, and old-fashioned. They were traditionally dirt-poor hardscrabble farmers but very proud, fighting all authority, especially that imposed by the US government. They were the backbone of the secessionist movement in the Civil War and their mindset survives in the stubborn "Dixie" mentality that still characterized Southern popular culture today that glorifies their rebellious past. However, that rebel tradition goes much farther back to the Whiskey Rebellion (fought shortly after the Revolution over the whiskey tax).
If they are associated with NASCAR today, it's only natural: stock car racing grew out of the fast, souped-up cars needed to run illegal alcohol down the twisty mountain roads from the moonshine stills. If they are highly religious, it's because they often immigrated from the UK as entire parishes, led by a preacher. And their speech is very conservative, still retaining all those yods that have left General American, as well as words like "reckon", that are deemed hopelessly old-fashioned by regular Americans, but are still commonly used in the UK and Australia, to our occasional surprise and amusement. They also tend to say things like "Tyoozdee" for "Tuesday", shortening the "day" part to "dy", which I notice still happens in parts of the UK as well. They also put H's in front of words that no longer have them, as when "it" becomes "hit".
This gives an entertaining rundown on some of the oddities of hillbilly speech and their Scottish or Elizabethan connections:
http://www.wvculture.org/history/journal_wvh/wvh30-2.html
That is the DAMN truth, isn't it, Jasper! I've noticed that more and more as I've spent more time on international forums with Brits and Aussies; they have a LOT in common with rednecks and hillbillies, speech-wise. And I suppose it makes sense from a historical perspective. Many Southerners, especially Appalachians, trace their lineage back to the Scots-Irish, or Scotch-Irish as we call them here.
This site gives a good overview of the classic immigration pattern:
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/america/scots_irish.htm
"Scots-Irish immigrants came from the historic province of Ulster (in the north of Ireland). Scottish settlers began to come in large numbers to Ulster in the early decades of the 1600s. James I, the English monarch, sought to solidify control by transferring land ownership to Protestants and by settling their lands with Protestant tenants (English and Scottish). Scottish settlers continued to come to Ireland throughout the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.
Many of the earliest Scots-Irish immigrants (of the 1720s and 1730s) first settled in Pennsylvania. Many then moved down from Pennsylvania into Virginia and the Carolinas. From there immigrants and their descendants went on to populate the states of Georgia, Kentucky, and Tennessee in the 1780s and 1790s.
There are a myriad of possible reasons for the immigration of so many of the Scots-Irish to America in the 1700s. High rents and religious persecution have often been blamed. Most of the Scots-Irish came freely to the American colonies, although there were also some who were deported as prisoners or came as indentured servants. Others came with British Army regiments and remained in the American colonies."
For non-Americans, the people in this region of the US, especially in mountainous Appalachia, have a reputation for being tough, stubborn, isolated, highly conservative, and old-fashioned. They were traditionally dirt-poor hardscrabble farmers but very proud, fighting all authority, especially that imposed by the US government. They were the backbone of the secessionist movement in the Civil War and their mindset survives in the stubborn "Dixie" mentality that still characterized Southern popular culture today that glorifies their rebellious past. However, that rebel tradition goes much farther back to the Whiskey Rebellion (fought shortly after the Revolution over the whiskey tax).
If they are associated with NASCAR today, it's only natural: stock car racing grew out of the fast, souped-up cars needed to run illegal alcohol down the twisty mountain roads from the moonshine stills. If they are highly religious, it's because they often immigrated from the UK as entire parishes, led by a preacher. And their speech is very conservative, still retaining all those yods that have left General American, as well as words like "reckon", that are deemed hopelessly old-fashioned by regular Americans, but are still commonly used in the UK and Australia, to our occasional surprise and amusement. They also tend to say things like "Tyoozdee" for "Tuesday", shortening the "day" part to "dy", which I notice still happens in parts of the UK as well. They also put H's in front of words that no longer have them, as when "it" becomes "hit".
This gives an entertaining rundown on some of the oddities of hillbilly speech and their Scottish or Elizabethan connections:
http://www.wvculture.org/history/journal_wvh/wvh30-2.html
↑ There is an other oddity about Appalachian speech, once mentioned here, whose origin remains a mystery: the tendency to pronounce the letter "s" as "sh" in words like "inspected", rendering a pronunciation of "in-shpected". The effect on the listener is so strong that it can sometimes invite ridicule. (We kids used to make fun of Miss X because of this tendency.)
Travis and I once discussed this oddity of speech, hypothesizing a possible German connection. But a closer look seems to make this unlikely: as you have mentioned, it was the Scots-Irish who settled Appalachia, not Germans.
I posit this theory: as we all know, English was once descended from Old English which had a close relationship with German. As unlikely as it seems, the "sh" for "s" connection must have come down from old English, possibly a variant of Elizabethan English.
In your opinion, is this plausible?
Travis and I once discussed this oddity of speech, hypothesizing a possible German connection. But a closer look seems to make this unlikely: as you have mentioned, it was the Scots-Irish who settled Appalachia, not Germans.
I posit this theory: as we all know, English was once descended from Old English which had a close relationship with German. As unlikely as it seems, the "sh" for "s" connection must have come down from old English, possibly a variant of Elizabethan English.
In your opinion, is this plausible?
Uriel, I just read the article you posted. What an interesting article it is?
While it did not address the "sh" phenomenon (an oddity I've never heard in any other American dialect), it did address some speech oddities that I both remember keenly, and sometimes used myself.
I never spoke Appalachian English in its entirety, but a few of the usages did creep into my speech. I, to this day, still have to suppress the tendency to say,"What's a-wrong?", or to refer to something as being "kilt" (killed). So THAT'S what they were saying when they referred to Hillbilly English as Elizabethan?
I find the dialect interesting enough to merit further study. From what I understand, however, the dialect that I know is dying, being replaced with Southern Inland Speech.
While it did not address the "sh" phenomenon (an oddity I've never heard in any other American dialect), it did address some speech oddities that I both remember keenly, and sometimes used myself.
I never spoke Appalachian English in its entirety, but a few of the usages did creep into my speech. I, to this day, still have to suppress the tendency to say,"What's a-wrong?", or to refer to something as being "kilt" (killed). So THAT'S what they were saying when they referred to Hillbilly English as Elizabethan?
I find the dialect interesting enough to merit further study. From what I understand, however, the dialect that I know is dying, being replaced with Southern Inland Speech.
lol Uriel. I always thought Sean Connery used "sh" for "s" because of his use of dentures.
At this point, we need a third voice: the voice of Damian, who's Scottish. Damian, if you're reading this, your insight on this oddity of American pronunciation is appreciated.
At this point, we need a third voice: the voice of Damian, who's Scottish. Damian, if you're reading this, your insight on this oddity of American pronunciation is appreciated.
James Bond wore dentures? I'm horrified!
<<I never spoke Appalachian English in its entirety, but a few of the usages did creep into my speech. I, to this day, still have to suppress the tendency to say,"What's a-wrong?", or to refer to something as being "kilt" (killed). So THAT'S what they were saying when they referred to Hillbilly English as Elizabethan?>>
It's a only due to our familiarity with it that we forget how odd it sounds; I bet a non-American would hear it and never even suspect it was from here!
When I was a kid my parents had the Foxfire book series, which details all sorts of Appalachian folkways. They probably had it because they were interested in all the traditional crafts and music -- my dad was into carpentry and woodworking and once made himself a dulcimer, which is the classic musical instrument of that region (bluegrass and its bastard cousin, country music, are both offshoots of traditional Irish and Scottish music, although now you can only tell by the retention of the fiddle) -- but my favorite part of the series was the book on ghost stories. Ghosts were called "haints" in that area (a variation of "haunt"), and the stories had been transcribed exactly as told, all in dialect. Which made them all the eerier. Nobody beats Southern gothic horror for sheer atmosphere! Must be the swamps. ("Foxfire" itself means the glow from a type of phosphorescent fungus that grows on rotting wood, visible at night.)
For good southern ghost stories (not just from Appalachia, but the whole region), you might want to check out The Moonlit Road. Some are in the style of modern urban legend, but most are rooted in some kind of actual history, and along with the chills, they give you a good insight into the folkways of that region.
http://themoonlitroad.com/
For more Appalachian-style horror, nothing beats the stories of Manly Wade Wellman, who was to Appalachia what H.P. Lovecraft was to New England. There used to be a copy of his short story Sin's Doorway on the web, but I can't find it anymore, so this will have to suffice:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_John
We've mentioned Suzette Hayden Elgin's books elsewhere. The only other book I've ever read that had a significant amount of Appalachian dialogue is Talking Man, by native Kentuckian Terry Bisson.
<<I never spoke Appalachian English in its entirety, but a few of the usages did creep into my speech. I, to this day, still have to suppress the tendency to say,"What's a-wrong?", or to refer to something as being "kilt" (killed). So THAT'S what they were saying when they referred to Hillbilly English as Elizabethan?>>
It's a only due to our familiarity with it that we forget how odd it sounds; I bet a non-American would hear it and never even suspect it was from here!
When I was a kid my parents had the Foxfire book series, which details all sorts of Appalachian folkways. They probably had it because they were interested in all the traditional crafts and music -- my dad was into carpentry and woodworking and once made himself a dulcimer, which is the classic musical instrument of that region (bluegrass and its bastard cousin, country music, are both offshoots of traditional Irish and Scottish music, although now you can only tell by the retention of the fiddle) -- but my favorite part of the series was the book on ghost stories. Ghosts were called "haints" in that area (a variation of "haunt"), and the stories had been transcribed exactly as told, all in dialect. Which made them all the eerier. Nobody beats Southern gothic horror for sheer atmosphere! Must be the swamps. ("Foxfire" itself means the glow from a type of phosphorescent fungus that grows on rotting wood, visible at night.)
For good southern ghost stories (not just from Appalachia, but the whole region), you might want to check out The Moonlit Road. Some are in the style of modern urban legend, but most are rooted in some kind of actual history, and along with the chills, they give you a good insight into the folkways of that region.
http://themoonlitroad.com/
For more Appalachian-style horror, nothing beats the stories of Manly Wade Wellman, who was to Appalachia what H.P. Lovecraft was to New England. There used to be a copy of his short story Sin's Doorway on the web, but I can't find it anymore, so this will have to suffice:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_John
We've mentioned Suzette Hayden Elgin's books elsewhere. The only other book I've ever read that had a significant amount of Appalachian dialogue is Talking Man, by native Kentuckian Terry Bisson.
""Foxfire" itself means the glow from a type of phosphorescent fungus that grows on rotting wood, visible at night.)"
I have had first-hand experience with foxfire, so I know exactly what it is.
I once had a very close friend named Sam, who was one of those hillbillies. We were a most unusual pair of friends, with dissimilar backgrounds, dissimilar interests, etc, but for some reason we connected on an emotional level that is necessary for intimate friendship.
Anyway, one summer I spent a week with him. We camped out in a tent way back in the hills. I noticed late in the night that a piece of wood was poking me in my back, so I pulled it out; it was riddled from head to toe with glow worms! I have to admit that I shrieked and threw the wood out of the tent, a series of actions that reduced my friend to hysterical laughter.
He, and later on his father, who was even a more stereotypical hillbilly than he was, explained to me about foxfire. They described it as being due to an atmospheric condition, where both the humidity and temperature have to be exactly right. (Apparently, they were wrong on this particular detail.) You never see foxfire, they continued, except way back in the woods. I know that I had never seen it before.
How foxfire glows so brilliantly in the dark is a mystery to me even now, but I can tell you it's almost bright enough to read by.
I have had first-hand experience with foxfire, so I know exactly what it is.
I once had a very close friend named Sam, who was one of those hillbillies. We were a most unusual pair of friends, with dissimilar backgrounds, dissimilar interests, etc, but for some reason we connected on an emotional level that is necessary for intimate friendship.
Anyway, one summer I spent a week with him. We camped out in a tent way back in the hills. I noticed late in the night that a piece of wood was poking me in my back, so I pulled it out; it was riddled from head to toe with glow worms! I have to admit that I shrieked and threw the wood out of the tent, a series of actions that reduced my friend to hysterical laughter.
He, and later on his father, who was even a more stereotypical hillbilly than he was, explained to me about foxfire. They described it as being due to an atmospheric condition, where both the humidity and temperature have to be exactly right. (Apparently, they were wrong on this particular detail.) You never see foxfire, they continued, except way back in the woods. I know that I had never seen it before.
How foxfire glows so brilliantly in the dark is a mystery to me even now, but I can tell you it's almost bright enough to read by.
It produces a chemical called luciferin, which then interacts with an enzyme named luciferase to produce the glow. Fireflies (or lightning bugs) use the same chemicals to light up their abdomens. Captured in large enough quantities in a glass jar, they make a great lantern, as virtually every kid east of the Mississippi knows from experience.
I read a website that mentions that bioluminescent fungi were used in Scandinavia in the middle ages to mark trails in the dark -- travellers would leave pieces of rotting wood along their path, Hansel and Gretel style, and then use the glowing remnants to find their way back!
I didn't know this, but in addition to the spooky fungus, there are areas of the South known for bizarre displays wherein fireflies blink en mass in almost perfect synchrony! No wonder they have such good ghost stories!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sROKYelaWbo
I read a website that mentions that bioluminescent fungi were used in Scandinavia in the middle ages to mark trails in the dark -- travellers would leave pieces of rotting wood along their path, Hansel and Gretel style, and then use the glowing remnants to find their way back!
I didn't know this, but in addition to the spooky fungus, there are areas of the South known for bizarre displays wherein fireflies blink en mass in almost perfect synchrony! No wonder they have such good ghost stories!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sROKYelaWbo