Current status of Occitan?

joolsey   Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:48 pm GMT
Does anyone have the latest on the current legal position of Occitan, and other French regional languages for that matter?

Is Paris still being all 'Jacobin' about 'threats to the unity of the republic' etc.?
encore   Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:20 pm GMT
<<In 1972, Georges Pompidou, the President of France and an Occitan, declared that "there is no room for regional languages in a France whose fate is to mark Europe with its seal"[21].

In a pre-election speech[22] in Lorient, on March 14, 1981, François Mitterrand asserted that:

The time has come to give the languages and cultures of France an official status. The time has come to open school doors wide for them, to create regional radio and TV stations to let them be broadcast, to ensure they play all the role they deserve in public life.

These declarations however were not followed by any effective measures.

In 1992, after some questioned the unconstitutional segregation of minority languages in France, Art. II of the 1958 French Constitution was revised so that "the language of the Republic shall be French" (la langue de la République est le français). This was achieved only months before the Council of Europe passed the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages [23], which Jacques Chirac ignored [24] despite Lionel Jospin's plea for the Constitutional Council to amend Art. II and include all vernacular languages spoken on French soil. Yet again, non-French languages in France were denied official recognition and deemed too dangerous for the unity of the country[25], and Occitans, Basques, Corsicans, Catalans, Bretons, Alsatians, Savoyards and Flemings have still no explicit legal right to conduct public affairs in their regional languages within their home lands. The text was again refused[26] by majority deputies on January 18, 2008, after the Académie française voiced their absolute disapproval[27][28] of so-called regional languages, which recognition they perceive as "an attack on French national identity".[29]

On the UMP website[30], Nicolas Sarkozy denies any mistreatment of regional languages. In a pre-electoral speech in Besançon on March 13, 2007 he claimed:

If I'm elected, I won't be in favour of the European Charter for Regional Languages. I don't want that tomorrow a judge with a historical experience of the issue of minorities different from ours, decides that a regional language must be considered as a language of the Republic just like French.
Because, beyond the text itself, there is a dynamic of interpretations and jurisprudence that can go very far. I am convinced that in France, the land of the free, no minority is discriminated against and consequently it is not necessary to grant European judges the right to give their opinion on a matter that is consubstantial with our national identity and has absolutely nothing to do with the construction of Europe.>>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergonha
Robert   Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:18 pm GMT
How all these proud peoples of the "french" territory (Flemish, Basque, Occitans, Corsicans, Bretons, Alsacians, Arpitans) can acept to be dominated and humiliated by a ruling minority: the french??
How can they accept to be forced to use a language and being integrated in a culture that is not theirs. How a "modern" country that consider itself "democratic" can be so violent and obsessed to destroy the cultures of dozens of million people.

But I understand that the french are afraid, they don't want to let the power they had for ruling these lands for so many centuries... they are only a minority against what they called "regions" but that are in reality whole nations (occitania itself is more than the third of the "country"; with Arpitania it makes almost half of it (with its biggest cities: Marseilles, Lyons, Tolouse, Bordeau, Nizza, Montpelhier, Touloun, etc); other of the big cities are Flemish (Lille, Dunkirk); Basque (Pau, Biarritz, Baiona), Catalan (Perpinya), Corsican (Bastia, Ajaccio), or Alsacian (Strasbourg, Mulhouse, Colmar)...

What is France in the middle of all this?? Just Paris (well now Paris is not very french anymore) and some lands around surrounded by averge sized cities such as Angers or Orleans... the french people don't represent much in the country they seem to consider their property; they could be easily being taken over...

there should be a second revolution: each people has right to rule his own land as he wishes (it is the human right universal declaration). France always speak about human rights but tries to make a genocide over its colonized and dominated peoples (who consitute the majority)...

How the french people are seen outside of their homelands of langue d'oil?
I think they should be hated, and nobody would like them
I think they are colonialists, conquistadors, and must be put out and must go back to France and leave Occitans, flemish, Alsacians,etc. live as they want to live, in their own language and culture! French people out of Occitania! Occitania free yourself from these Gallic tyrans! (we could help you for doing that)
not all oil peoples are f   Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:38 pm GMT
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Langues_de_la_France1.gif

well, linguistically and cuturally speaking french culture is limited to the yellow area... the green areas (other langue d'oil peoples) are culturally quite close to the french culture, but not really french themselves, they also have their own languages and own identities. The rest of the country (other colors) are completely different languages and cultures.

You understand jacubinism: it is the rule of a few people in a very limited area, but that controls a lot os other nations.
LeToulousain   Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:23 pm GMT
I'm French, I'm 21 and I live in Toulouse (south-east of France)...I just add I was born there, so I'm a true "toulousain" of Occitania.

I begin my message saying that in "Occitania" everybody feel French. There is no cultural war here, we know we are different than an Alsatian or a Parisian, but these diffrences are not important. We didn't lose our particularities, the atmosphere in Toulouse isn't the same in Bordeaux or Grenoble.

There is something that make me proud to be from Toulouse and the south east because it is my regional identity, but first of all I'm French, it's something more natural, and I can assure you it's the case of 98% of the population.

France is not only Paris, it's also the south, the north, the west and the east. Brittany is as French as Occitania or Alsace, there is no hierarchy in the French nationality (I never felt more French than a Basque), it's something unthinkable.

I have to say that foreigners, thinking to France, always speak of Paris and it trully irritate the provincials because they ARE France, as French as Parisians. It shows they WANT to be part of France.

Finally you have to know that Occitan isn't an homogenous language, it's divided in 5 or 6 regions (Gascon, Languedocien, provençal, limousin, auvergnat and more). There is not a "one and unique" Occitan culture.
blanc   Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:00 am GMT
" I'm French, I'm 21 and I live in Toulouse (south-east of France)... "


Toulouse c'est dans le sud-ouest, pas dans le sud-est, tu devrais le savoir! ;)
joolsey   Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:02 am GMT
Le Toulousain

you are being perfectly rational, and I like the way that your regional pride does not necessarily translate into a desire for political separatism. This alone should be an argument against French centralists! They fear any pride or development of historical local culture as threat to the national integrity, but as you have shown, the people in these regions are not conspiring againts the unity of the republic (although I believe they have good reason to do so considering the bloody history and artificial character of French centralisation) whenever they express their local pride..they are obviously happy to be French, ok. So answer me this.. Why then does the French Republic not grant them any concession. Why must every aspect of French cultural life emanate from the centre, from the capital, the 'dirigiste' model? A republic that does not trust its own citizens fidelity?
joolsey   Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:40 am GMT
Le Toulosain,

I must take issue with something you say...

<< but first of all I'm French, it's something more natural, and I can assure you it's the case of 98% of the population >>

It is not something more natural. How could it be when the Revolutionaries themselves felt compelled to legislate (ie artificially create) French identity from Paris? They themselves certainly did not feel so. It's not as if it was a natural, spontaneous evolution in the attitudes of the southern peoples, due to changing commerical patterns etc. It was an imposition from the top down and not an organic development from the bottom up. And if only you could have told that to the people in the Vendee, who had to be convinced by bayonets and muskets! Thousands of dead due to 'natural' imposition from the salons of Paris.

In other words, let me try to summarise French Republican thinking; try to implement an abstract idea, and when you encounter resistance to it or find that it does not diffuse itself effortlessly, then use coersion and enforce it....no matter what the cost.

And tell me, was France any more stable and harmonious throughout the following 1800s as a result of this great progress?
LeToulousain   Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:58 am GMT
Toulouse c'est dans le sud-ouest, pas dans le sud-est, tu devrais le savoir! ;)

Je ne donne aps cher de mon niveau d'anglais...ça va jusqu'à confondre "west" et "east"...j'ai honte
Agree with le Toulousain   Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:12 am GMT
English,Scots,Northern Irish and Welsh feel British too.
LeToulousain   Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:24 am GMT
<<So answer me this.. Why then does the French Republic not grant them any concession. Why must every aspect of French cultural life emanate from the centre, from the capital, the 'dirigiste' model? A republic that does not trust its own citizens fidelity? >>

You know, it is not a stroy of 'concession' or 'citizens fidelity', the people just feel comfortable with the current situation and doesn't claim more autonomy or more gratefullness from the Republic (we are the Republic, we are not 'inferior French'...just unthinkable).
Even in some region like Pays Basque or Bretagne, where the regional feeling is stronger, there is a great combination between the local culture and the national cutlure (finally the Basque culture is fully part of the French culture). The independentist political parties are very weak, even in Alsace or Corsica, they never do more than 1-2% during the elections, it clearly shows there is no question a independance.

Currently the foreigners, when they travel to France, only want to see Paris (very true with Americans or Asians, less with Europeans), they only see in the French culture the Parisian way of life. But I can understand because Paris is the most dynamic region and the most attractive one. It paticipate to the famous France=Paris.
But here everybody knows that French culture is the combination of all the regional aspects, France would'nt be France without "boeuf bourguignon", "choucroute" (or "cassoulet" and "foie gras" for my region), but this dimension isn't known abroad.
encore   Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:23 am GMT
<<The independentist political parties are very weak, even in Alsace or Corsica, they never do more than 1-2% during the elections, it clearly shows there is no question a independance. >>

Why France don't ratified the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages? It isn't question of independence,it is question about regional languages rights in these regions. Why Italy can give official status to German language in province Bolzano/Bozen,but France can't give it in Alsace? Italy and France both are members of EU.
Franco   Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:26 am GMT
German is different. It must be official in Bozen because it is a superior language with respect to Italian whereas Occitan or Basque are lesser languages in relation to French.
blanc   Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:28 am GMT
" English,Scots,Northern Irish and Welsh feel British too. "


The people from what some of you call "Occitania*" don't feel french the way Scotish people feel British but the way people from Sussex fell English.




* A word that 95% of the people from these areas (that some of you called the "dominated proud occitans", LOL) don't have an idea of what it could mean. In these regions, if the people have a feeling of being part of a regional identity it is not an "occitan" one. "Occitania" never existed as neither a region, nation or province taht could have some common identity; it is just a neologism to speak about the different regions that were traditionally having a oc-speaking dialect. It is not more a region than "oilie" (group of regions traditionally speaking oil dialects)
The traditional local regional identities are splet in many different: Provençal, Gascon, Languedocien, Auvergnat, Limousin, etc. Limousin's identity definitly isn't the same at all than Provençal one.





" France would'nt be France without "boeuf bourguignon", "choucroute" (or "cassoulet" and "foie gras" for my region), but this dimension isn't known abroad. "

Yes, absolutly! french culture is the melting of the whole cultures of its territory (including west indies, Réunion island. To me (and to many people I think), zouk music or Antillais food is part of french culture too, the same way cassoulet, pot-au-feu or ratatouille are)

the cultural opposition Paris/parisian bassin (supposed to be the ruling heart) vs Régions (supposed to be the dominated cultures by some) it absurd; for further reasons:

- What people see in Paris and "Parisian culture" (if I can say so) is since long time the result of the melting of lot of local cultures and people. Paris is not culturally or ethnically a city specifically linked to "northern French identity" (or any regional identity) (even if it is situated there): The typical Parisian is a mix of Bretons, Auvergnats, Corsicans, Basques, Provençal, etc. (plus of course Portuguese, Italian, Spanish, Polish, Africans, Asians, etc). It is reflected in the local culture: for an exemple cafés and brasseries (tipically Parisian no?) were traditionally led by Auvergnats, bringing thir dishes with them, ect. it is the same with Breton or corsican influences (There are more people of Corsican descent in Paris than in Corsica itself: Paris as we know it has been complelty redesigned by two Napoleons (Corsicans). last Paris mayor was Corsican but tipically seen as a Parisian. Many of leading political Parisians, many attorneys, (and also in the police, I don't know why) are with Corsican origins.

- Secondly by "Parisian centralism", people think that Parisians are an "ethny" that rule the rest of France, that is absurd since the deputies and politicans that rule the country from Paris were elected from the régions! each région send its deputies to Paris to rule de country... The country is ruled from Paris in a very centralized way, yes, but it is not ruled by Parisians but by people rooted in the local scale!! (even is it was the case, as I said it earlier Parisians are also a mix of everything else, so are also rooted elsewhere).
If the peoples from "occitania" wanted more independance or be separated
from the rest of the country it would have been the case.

Chirac (quite a typical french person I think) was rooted in Correze (that some of you call "dominated Occitania" as if it was a different country); Mitterand was from Charentes (west of Limousin), Giscard d'Estaing was Auvergnat (auvergne is supposed to be part of occitania too), as well as Pompidou was, etc... very "parisian" french leaders?! the most centralist that France had known was a little Corsican man... part also of the dominating "Parisian" ruling class?!
PARISIEN   Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:39 am GMT
<< How could it be when the Revolutionaries themselves felt compelled to legislate (ie artificially create) French identity from Paris? >>

-- Dumb question. It never happened that way!

First of all, in the Middle Ages, depiste the country was split between lots of fully independant fiefs and the King's authority was restricted to a tiny area, the French language underwent a very early spontaneaous process of standardisation. From the Norman court of London (England) to Bordeaux, From Liège (Belgium) to Lyons and Aoste (in present day Italy), the same French was written in the 12th century, with just some local flavours.

Of course, this left apart the southern quarter of France, where Occitan dialects were the people's tongue. There, French slowly permeated the ruling classes, the courts of justice and universities (but Latin was still predominant there). But with the Renaissance and the introduction of bookprinting, the educated classes switched to French as a written medium. No one ever thought to protest, the Crown didn't have any influence in this evolution.

And were literacy began to extend (17th century), all parish schools choose French. Even in foreign Occitan speaking regions. In the Duchy of Savoy, schools used only French even in areas that nowadays belong to Italian Piedmont.

France didn't have any influence in the fact that Swiss cantons eradicated franco-provençal dialects in Western Switzerland. It was just seen as a natural process.


<< How a "modern" country that consider itself "democratic" can be so violent and obsessed to destroy the cultures of dozens of million people gadaa, gadaa... >>

-- Ludicrous urban legends.