Portugal Vs. Spain bickering brothers
"Claramente a palavra segue a tendência do português na época de Camões."
Brasil era densamente povoado na época de Camões até Camões que esteve na guerra de Ceuta em 1549 sabia disso. Por isso todos Brasileiros falam como ele. Camões tambem não sabia dizer probrema certinho. No entanto dava mais jeito para fazer rima, o "s" no plurar tambem era complicado de escrever por isso ele não escrevia dava mais jeito para fazer rima tambem porque ele perdeu um olho não dava para ver quando faltava um s ou não.
Marcos BAGNO makes great sense. I have been reading him for a long time. Yet, Bagno points to the problems but he shows no solutions.
What he is saying is that one needs to reflect. Yet, he missed a very important point. The Portuguese language is a world language with 800 of history, spoken by millions of non-Brazilians.
He also fails to mention that what is happening in Brazil is a normal occurrence. People speak languages and languages evolve. Different people will speak the same language differently. Portuguese speakers around the world face the same challenges Bagno points out inBrazil. Those challenges are not exclusive of Brazil.
The Portuguese language has evolved in Brazil as well as in the rest of the Portuguese speaking world.
It is paramount that Portuguese language speakers find some common understanding regarding the language they share with the important realization ithat some forms of the language will be left for each individual and/or group or subgroup to decide how they will use it.
Yet, collectively, the language needs to be brought up to a level where all that share the language are be able to connect to it.
From the Brazilian Indian to the Azorean in Corvo to the school boy in Luanda, and the teacher in East Timor, one must find common ground.
Grammar will do that. It is a good beginning. Yet grammars are reactionary and for the most part unrealistic and full of misrepresentations of the language. However grammars serve a purpose. They define the norm.
No one enjoys grammar. But we all need it. Because, for someone to access a language, including their own, one needs to find the common public discourse.
Brazilians need to understand that no one owns the Portuguese language. Not the Portuguese, not the Brazilians. The Portuguese language is a linguistic identity on itself. To share that body one needs to accept and respect it as a whole.
Brazilian nativist react like they own the Portuguese language, therefore they feel free to do what they please with it. Yet it is irresponsible and counter-productive.
Regarding the Portuguese langauge, Brazilians need to find common ground for themselves so that they may tell the rest of us what that common ground is. The problem is that Brazilians are not willing to do find that common ground for themselves. They will suffer the consequences.
In the mean time, The Portuguese language outside Brazil will evolve in the tradition of finding common ground and consensus. Inthat contexct, European Portuguese will stay as the guiding source to Portuguese language users around the world.
"Marcos BAGNO makes great sense."
Concordo com tu, em sua homenage segue uma prosia:
Omenáge pruma dotôra
Por Airam Ribeiro
31/01/06
Quando o home do corrêi
Chegô naquele jumento
Pensei u qui será!
Mas logo tomei intento.
Sem fazê mutia maliça
Priguntei quala nutiça
Vinda naquele momento?
É um cunviti procê
Vinda de Sobradin.
Qui quano abri pra lê
Tava inscrito bem ancim:
Escrevo desta distancia
Não meça circunstancia
É pra você comparecer sim.
Completei o meu curso
Formei-me em advocacia
Até passei na OAB
Pra completar a alegria,
Vou continuar a labuta
Não posso fugir da luta
Vou ser juíza algum dia!
Gringo,
Beautiful nativist Brazilian poem.
I understood most of it.
Yet, it is an example of poetry license. It is restricted to its own lcontext.
I love it.
Thank you.
The new iberian tongue should be based on Galician, a sort of melding of the two languages. Castilian and Portuguese together can defeat English.
<< Castilian and Portuguese together can defeat English. >>
LOL. Let's put them in the boxing ring and see what happens, shall we?
"The new iberian tongue"
You mean Castrapo or Portunhol? It is not new it always existed in small amounts.
"a sort of melding of the two languages" yes that is nice just add
a rich creamy french accent topping and sprinkle with crispy sweet english words a dusting of ground german accent and then drizzled with italian hot sauce.Then garnished with a red cherry.
Continental Portuguese is so plain.
It's because it's continental :p
Portuguese and Spanish are astoundingly similar. I have never had any Portuguese education and I can understand most of what is written in this forum in Portuguese. I doubt they will join together though, and they shouldn't. Each language is beautiful on its own, and since the two can understand each other, I see no reason for change.
As to Castillian+Portuguese > English....
The main reason English is widespread today is because of the economic influence of English speaking countries. British colonialism had something to do with it, but I wouldnt necessarily say its the main reason. If things continue to go the way they are, the third world countries are gonna catch up and the precensce Spanish and Portuguese is going to become more apparent. However, there are many more countries with much more people that speak Spanish, so I believe that Spanish will pull out ahead.
JR, nice message. I agree with you.
I am working on a linguistics paper about Portuguese language. I have to compare Portuguese against English and Spanish. During a linguistic class, the profesor said poruguese was not even among the 10th most spoken languages in the world...can you believe that?
Not among the 10th? Well I've seen 2 different sites today that put it in the 7th or 8th positions, with around 170-190 million speakers. Spanish is 425-450 million, while French has 125 million.
''Alem disso... Portugal adapta escritores de literatura brasileira... em edições preparadas para seu público... com léxico e construção gramatical europeus... mesmo autores contemporâneos... como Paulo Coelho . As entrevistas de atores brasileiros nos jornais também sofrem semelhante adaptação. Outro exemplo comprovado é o fato de uma reportagem publicada no Jornal Expresso em 2003 com o título “Livrarias Estrangeiras” em Lisboa incluir o Centro Cultural Brasileiro na classificação. O artigo não enfoca a diferença entre a língua nos dois países... mas chama a atenção sobre o preconceito contra o português brasileiro:
“o meio acadêmico alimentou desde sempre um preconceito em relação à tradução brasileira. ‘Preferiam ler em inglês ou francês do que em brasileiro’ ironiza Madalena”.
“Os leitores eram principalmente curiosos (...) ou amantes da literatura brasileira que se recusavam a ler versões aportuguesadas dos originais.”
“A livraria brasileira afirma-se apesar das reservas sobre o ‘português do Brasil’”.
Nota-se... portanto... uma rejeição do português variante brasileira.
Ainda em 2003 foi noticiada no jornal ‘’O Globo’’ demissão coletiva pela Rádio Cidade de Lisboa de todos os locutores com sotaque brasileiro... que foram substituídos por radialistas com sotaque europeu. Os locutores brasileiros apresentaram queixa ao Ministro da Cultura do Brasil por discriminação.
Assim... nota-se que mesmo esse vínculo linguístico... que se pressupõe o mais forte entre Portugal e Brasil... é depreciado e rejeitado pela antiga metrópole.''
(Márcia Paredes)
“Outro exemplo comprovado é o fato de uma reportagem publicada no Jornal Expresso em 2003 com o título “Livrarias Estrangeiras” em Lisboa incluir o Centro Cultural Brasileiro na classificação.”
This looks nice! “exemplo comprovado”LOL.
You are complaining because the “Brazilian Cultural Centre” was classified as a foreign book shop in Portugal? Why? Is it Portuguese national? This comment is ridiculous. Really!!
“o meio acadêmico alimentou desde sempre um preconceito em relação à tradução brasileira. ‘Preferiam ler em inglês ou francês do que em brasileiro’ ironiza Madalena”.
“Brasileiro” is not a language. You either show quality as a writer or no one has to pay to read bad translations. And in my country people are free to choose and buy books of any author and in any language. What books we buy or in what we spend our money is not your concern.
“Ainda em 2003 foi noticiada no jornal ‘’O Globo’’ demissão coletiva pela Rádio Cidade de Lisboa de todos os locutores com sotaque brasileiro... que foram substituídos por radialistas com sotaque europeu. Os locutores brasileiros apresentaram queixa ao Ministro da Cultura do Brasil por discriminação.”
Reporters are fired if there is no audience, the Brazilians are not even preferred by Brazilian immigrants in Portugal. If they were increasing audience they would be paid a raise instead of being sacked, the money talks louder. One either shows a good work and tries to understand the preferences of the public, or loses audience and is sacked!
I heard that the Portuguese are going to sack the Brazilian soap operas from Portuguese TV, is it true? Or are they going to be dubbed in Portugal because of the prejudice? LOL
-“Brasileiro” is not a language.-
Who are you to say this?
God maybe?
vá cagar no quintal da Dona Canô
"Brasileiro" não é língua, por muito que custe a alguns brasileiros. Cagar é um verbo português em qualquer lado do Atlântico.