Question for Americans about the "flap t"

Timothy   Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:28 am GMT
37-year-old educated American from the Northeast here...

As a general rule: If you aren't sure, then use the proper "t."
For some words (e.g., "better"), ALL Americans flap the "t." But for some words, a proper/normal "t" is a sign of higher intelligence/education, or at least someone who takes more precise care with their speech. It's better to err on the side of being too proper than too sloppy.

debating --- OK
photographer --- INCORRECT
dentist --- INCORRECT
don't answer --- OK TO SAY "don' answer" (sounds like "doan answer")
carpenter --- CARELESS
eager to help --- OK
faculty --- OK BUT SOUNDS A LITTLE CARELESS
been terrific --- INCORRECT
star together --- OK BUT SOUNDS CARELESS
alter --- INCORRECT
happy together --- OK
free Tibet --- INCORRECT
first "t" in "had a Toyota" --- INCORRECT
Baltimore --- CARELESS
second "t" in "certainty" --- CARELESS
rougher terrain --- INCORRECT
altar --- INCORRECT
dogmatism--- INCORRECT
Uriel   Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:12 am GMT
Yeah, I tend to say "dennist" more than "dentist". But if I were going whole hog and saying the T, it would be a normal T, never a flapped T. "Dendist" would sound really strange.
Tom   Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:11 am GMT
How would you describe the way I pronounced "dentist" in the recording? Incorrect? Really strange? OK?

This is a question for everyone, but especially Uriel and Timothy.
Entbark   Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:14 am GMT
You kind of give off the vibe of being a computer speech synthesizer (albeit a really good one), and that is probably because you are just saying individual words or short phrases, but I wouldn't blink at your pronunciation of the word "dentist." Sounds fine to me.
Uriel   Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:27 am GMT
Your dentist was okay. You didn't really flap the T. Other words and phrases, however, sounded decidedly odd with the wrong T.
Timothy   Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:19 am GMT
It sounds like a computer-speech program.
Saying "dentist" is ideal; saying "dennist" is OK; saying "dendist" is incorrect, although probably nobody will notice.
Entbark   Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:54 am GMT
You can't really flap the T in dentist because your tongue is already at the alveolar ridge from the /n/. Or you would have to add a vowel, but then it would sound like you are a native speaker of Japanese.
Uriel   Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:35 pm GMT
Lots of words have a D right after an N. It's not hard to get from one to the other at all. Say "ending" or "founder". They don't require the insertion of a vowel. Academics might quibble over exactly what a flapped T is, but most regular people hear it more or less as a D.
Tenerife   Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:44 pm GMT
According to JC Wells (Longman Pronunciation Dictionary), 1st T is dentist is both flap and silent.
Tenerife   Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:51 pm GMT
Timothy   Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:05 am GMT
How can "dentist" be both flap and silent? Silent, I could see, since some people say "dennist." But flap? I and everyone I know say, "dent-ist." Who ever says "dendist?" Sounds like BS to me.
Tom   Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:08 pm GMT
Entbark,

The idea is that the "nt" cluster coalesces into a nasalized alveolar tap (an alveolar tap is what you hear e.g. in Spanish "caro"; it's essentially a brief version of the trilled r). However, I agree that "dennist" is the usual version. I think the nasalized flap t is more common between two unstressed vowels, e.g. "international".

Timothy,
Perhaps what Tenerife meant is that it can be EITHER flap or silent?? Too bad I don't have the LPD to check it.
Another Guest   Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:06 pm GMT
Uriel: in "dentist", the middle "t" can can blur between the two syllables. But in "ending", the "d" is completely shifted to the second syllable. It's not really possible to pronounce it "end-ing". If you try, it comes out a bit like "en-duh-ing. I know an Iranian who pronounces "ended" as "enduhded", probably because she's trying to put the first "d" with the first syllable.

Tom said:

> Clarification:
>- "flap t" is the voiced consonant pronounced e.g. in "better". It sounds >like a quickly pronounced "d".
>- "normal t" is the "t" sound in "Tom"

If I understand what "flap t" is, then I would consider the proper pronunciation of "better" to not have it. In fact, while there are cases where "flap t" would not be flat-out wrong, I can't think of any word whose careful enunciation would result in that pronunciation. Using "flap t" makes you sound like you have a cold. So, since all flaps sound weird to me, I've listed just how weird the words sound to me. Also, you aren't really using "e.g." quite correctly.

I'm not debating mild
photographer moderate
dentist mild
don't answer mild
carpenter mild
eager to help mild
faculty mild
been terrific high
star together mild
alter mild
happy together high
free Tibet high
first "t" in "had a Toyota" high
Baltimore moderate
second "t" in "certainty" mild
rougher terrain high
altar mild
dogmatism moderate


Strangely, I found "happy together" to have much more of a flap than "star together". Also, I found "rougher terrain" to be weird not just in the word "terrain", but also "rougher". I don't know if it was just an auditory illusion with the weirdness of "terrain" bleeding over to the previous word, but I think that I have an incomplete fur/fir merger and that I perceive the last syllable of "rougher" to be the "wrong" version of this allophone.
Tom   Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:27 am GMT
I've listened to some recordings of American English (such as the Shaggy Dog Stories available on Antimoon), and I am now 100% certain that it is OK to pronounce "dentist" and similar words with a nasalized flapped t sound.

Whether you call the sound a nasalized flap t or a "plosivized" [n] doesn't really matter. It's a sound that combines the characteristics of [n] and flap t. Here's an audio example:
http://www.antimoon.com/sound/wanted-flap.mp3

I think you will all agree that the sound in the sample is totally okay. Of course, I am not saying that this is the only correct pronunciation. In fact, skipping over the /t/ altogether is probably more widespread.

But now I'm curious about how many of you actually pronounce "dentist" as "dennist", and how many make the nasalized flap t. Which brings me to my question:

Do you pronounce the "nt"/"nn" in the following pairs identically?

banter - banner
planting - planning
winter - winner
painting - paining
ninety - niny (all right, I know that's not a word)
warranted - warranned (ditto)
the point of - the poin of (...)
seen together - Seennegether (pretend it's someone's name)


Aside from the nt/nn difference (if any), are there any vowel differences?
socal guy   Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:55 am GMT
banter =/= banner
planting =/= planning
winter *sometimes = winner
painting *sometimes = paining
ninety =/= niny
warranted =/= warranned
the point of = the poin of [unless stressed/glotted]
seen together =/= Seennegether

no vowel differences