Mutually Intelligible Languages

fraz   Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:54 am GMT
<<I wonder if Scottish Gaelic is more mutually intelligible with the Northern Irish dialects, since the Scot tribe came originally from Northern Ireland? >>

I dabbled in Ulster Irish a few years ago and I remember native speakers telling me that they could follow some Scots Gaelic.

A sound shift often occurs at the start of Gaelic words when they are preceded by a preposition.

eg cara - friend
mo chara - my friend.
rep   Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:10 am GMT
<<Differences between Scottish Gaelic and Irish>>
"How are you?"
Scottish Gaelic — Ciamar a tha sibh? (formal) or Ciamar a tha thu? (informal), Lewis dialect Dè mar a tha sibh? (dè < cad è)
Ulster Irish — Cad é mar atá tú?, spelt in 'dialect spelling' as Caidé mar a tá tú?
Connacht Irish — Cén chaoi a bhfuil tú?
Munster Irish — Conas taoi?, Conas tánn tú?, Conas atá tú?
"I have no money"-
Scottish Gaelic — Chan eil airgead agam.
Ulster Gaelic — Chan fhuil/Cha bhfuil airgead agam.
Standard Irish — Níl airgead agam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differences_between_Scottish_Gaelic_and_Irish
Dzen Dobry   Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:02 am GMT
<< Polish, Czech, and Slovak
-----

Polish is completely non-mutually intelligible with Czech and Slovak. Between Czech and Slovak the perception differs substantially between the peoples. Slovaks claim to understand Czechs no problem, while Czechs have considerable difficulty understanding Slovak. I've heard other people say their is a similer phenomenon: I knew a Spaniard and Portugese person in Poland- they communicated in Spanish, but the Portugese person claimed to understand Spanish before he studied where as the Spaniard said Portugese wasn't intelligible. I have heard an Estonian say Finnish is the same langiage, and Finn say that Estonian is difficult. Even some Romanians have claimed to understand Italian, but no Italian has said the same... My theory is that people who speak the less common language receive more exposure to the other language and focus more on understanding the differences. This is based on Slovaks telling me that they still watch some Czech broadcasts, but Czechs never get exposure to Slovak unless they go to Slovakia (most Czechs go to Austria, Germany, or the Dalmatian Coast for international vacations). >>

Sorry, but Czech and Slovak are able to understand Polish and the other way around. Slavic languages are closer to each other than Spanish/Italian/Portuguese. In this case it would be very easy for Poles, Czech, and Slovaks to communicat with each other by just using their respective languages.

Czech and Slovaks can communicate with Serbo-Croatian speakers. If that is the case, then more so with Polish. It's just a common sense you know.
Steak 'n' Chips   Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:48 pm GMT
Thank you for your examples of the similarities and differences between Gaelic languages.

They do really appear to be different languages rather than just dialects, clearly as differentiated as the Romance languages are from each other, despite the much smaller geographical spread. I guess that's a reflection of its age, having propagated probably much more slowly than Latin, without a centralised "nation" like Latin had with the Roman Empire, to organise language unification.

Another think I noticed was that Gaelic languages appear to have completely different vocabulary and structure from Romance and Germanic languages. Even though I remember reading that Celtic tongues fall in the same Indo-European group, Romance and Germanic languages come across as closer brothers to eachother than the are to Gaelic languages.

This makes me wonder if the distinct lack of Gaelic influence in English is more a result of the wide gulf between the languages, such that Gaelic languages were just too alien for the Germanic invaders and immigrants to assimilate the local language and culture? Or have Celtic languages actually infiltrated English and other languages more than I noticed?

The point, really, is that it seems when mutual intelligibility is very low, the degree of assimilation between languages appears historically to have also been low.

Perhaps it is for this reason that Chinese is not spreading like widfire, as it should if its spread were just driven by the dominance of nations and economics? Maybe it's just too alien for the rest of the world to absorb any of it.

Conversely, Romance languages, which have relatively high mutual intelligibility between each other (or possibly Slavic languages are similar?), there appear to be many different languages, that sound "half-and-half", persistant in regions where such mutually intelligible national languages have a geographical border; e.g. Catalan, Gallego.
joolsey   Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:26 pm GMT
Steak n Chips


Yeah, both Scots and Irish Gaeilic were a united group (at least in terms of written standard) up until the 16th century. From thereonafter their divergences became formalised. Perhaps this was facilitated by the Reformation which politically divided clans across the seaboard (reducing their interaction) and saw attempts to write scripture in Scots Gaelic vernacular.

In terms of a Gaeilic substratum affecting English; well you can see it in pronuncation trends in Ireland.
In rural areas, the 'th'-v-'t' distinction is non-existant since that lisping 'theta' sound is not present in Gaeilic. Most educated, urban dwellers to this day do make the distinciton but we make it incorrectly. So what other English speakers hear is a kind of lazy,aspirated sound for the 't' sounding almost like a Castillian 's' and for the 'th' phoneme it results in a more plosive 't' almost like French or Spanish version. To my ear they are perfectly recognisable and coherent, but only a self-conscious or mannered broadcasting voice will force the 'th' lisp.

In terms of syntax, there is one famous example of the Gaeilic substratum and that is our tendency to replace the present perfect for recently completed actions with a form " be + AFTER + gerund" e.g. " I'm after going back to work on Monday " (I just got back to work this past Monday) which some American friends of mine understood to mean "What I'm going after, what I'm aiming for, is to return to work next Monday"
Franco   Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:15 pm GMT
Galician and Spanish are mutually intelligible but not Portuguese -Spanish or Italian-Spanish.
opinion   Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:26 pm GMT
<<but not Portuguese -Spanish >> Scottish Gaelic and Portuguese aren't mutually intelligible,but Portuguese-Spanish are.
looling Joao   Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:18 am GMT
«Spanish and Italian are mutually intelligible to some degree, perhaps even more than Spanish and Portuguese.»

Apart from the words Gracias/Grazie, this is not true.
looling Joao   Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:25 am GMT
«Galician and Spanish are mutually intelligible but not Portuguese -Spanish or Italian-Spanish»

It depends. Galician has a pronounciation closer to Spanish, so it might be easier for Spaniards to recognise the sounds, but the vocabulary of Galician is much closer to Portuguese, so regarding the vocabulary it's so clear for a Portuguese that we sometimes think it's Portuguese (with Spanish accent).

Portuguese can be inteligible for a Spaniard if he's used to hearing the language. Many inhabbitants of the bordeing regions of Extremadura and Salamanca have no difficulty in understanding Portuguese (without learning it) because they travell a lot to Portugal.
looling Joao   Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:29 am GMT
«<<but not Portuguese -Spanish >> Scottish Gaelic and Portuguese aren't mutually intelligible,but Portuguese-Spanish are.»

Opinion, Galician is spoken in Northwest Spain. It is almost Portuguese (Portugal was founded in Galicia). Although there are Celtic traces in Galicia and in the north of Portugal, Galician has nothing to do with Scotish Gaelic.
Gaelic is not Galician (LOL)
Looling Joao   Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:34 am GMT
«In terms of syntax, there is one famous example of the Gaeilic substratum and that is our tendency to replace the present perfect for recently completed actions with a form " be + AFTER + gerund" e.g. " I'm after going back to work on Monday " (I just got back to work this past Monday) which some American friends of mine understood to mean "What I'm going after, what I'm aiming for, is to return to work next Monday"»

Interesting. "To be after" in English is a phrase for following a goal (LOL)
looling Joao   Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:39 am GMT
«My theory is that people who speak the less common language receive more exposure to the other language and focus more on understanding the differences. »

Absolutely!
looling Joao   Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:46 am GMT
«catalan galego portuguese are mutual intelligibility with spanish but i don't know if catalan is intelligibility with portuguese and galego and so on. Catalan is more 'french' and galego is more 'portuguese' spanish perhaps is in the middle of them»

Harman, apart from "bon dia" in Catalan and "bom dia" in Portuguese, these languages are not mutually intelligible.
I was in Barcelona. I can uderstand Spanish despite having never learned it, but couldn't understand Catalan. Even reading a newspaper in Catalan was difficult for me.
Franco   Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:16 am GMT
Vocabulary of Galician is sometimes much closer to Spanish than to Portuguese, take for example the days of the week. In Galician it's mercores (= miercoles), not quarta feira. Hay que ser meapilas con avaricia para poner estos nombres.
opinion   Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:25 pm GMT
It was a joke about Scottish Gaelic and Portuguese,but posts about Spanish-Portuguese unintelligibility are silly things.