Mutually Intelligible Languages

dude   Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:25 pm GMT
"Another think I noticed was that Gaelic languages appear to have completely different vocabulary and structure from Romance and Germanic languages. Even though I remember reading that Celtic tongues fall in the same Indo-European group, Romance and Germanic languages come across as closer brothers to eachother than the are to Gaelic languages. "

Maybe they do seem a lot different in structure today, especially after many centuries of cross-cultural influences, but I actually remember reading that long ago Celtic languages were closer and more in common with Italic, of which Latin was later a language, and that the people entered western Europe as one group before splitting apart, while Germans had a different development. Either way, Gaelic languages seem to be some of the most obscure and interesting ones in Europe to me.
JGreco   Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:37 am GMT
Occitan actually fascinates me because it is spoken with an oil accent yet with my background in Br.Portuguese and Spanish, I can understand quite a bit of spoken Occitan and hardly 2% of spoken French (I can understand more spoken Romanian than I can understand French).
rep   Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:09 pm GMT
<<Occitan actually fascinates me because it is spoken with an oil accent yet with my background in Br.Portuguese and Spanish, I can understand quite a bit of spoken Occitan and hardly 2% of spoken French (I can understand more spoken Romanian than I can understand French). >>
Occitan is closely related to Catalan:
Occitan:
Totes los èssers umans naisson liures e egals en dignitat e en dreches. Son dotats de rason e de consciéncia e se devon comportar los unes amb los autres dins un esperit de fraternitat.
Catalan:
Tots els éssers humans neixen lliures i iguals en dignitat i en drets. Són dotats de raó i de consciència, i han de comportar-se fraternalment els uns amb els altres.
French:
Tous les êtres humains naissent libres et égaux en dignité et en droits.
Ils sont doués de raison et de conscience et doivent agir les uns envers les autres dans un esprit de fraternité.
Portuguese:
Todos os seres humanos nascem livres e iguais em dignidade e em direitos. Dotados de razão e de consciência, devem agir uns para com os outros em espírito de fraternidade
http://www.lexilogos.com/declaration/index_english.htm
Franco   Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:49 pm GMT
Occitan:
Totes los èssers umans naisson liures e egals en dignitat e en dreches. Son dotats de rason e de consciéncia e se devon comportar los unes amb los autres dins un esperit de fraternitat.
Catalan:
Tots els éssers humans neixen lliures i iguals en dignitat i en drets. Són dotats de raó i de consciència, i han de comportar-se fraternalment els uns amb els altres.


According to this paragraph Occitan sounds closer to Spanish than Catalan

Sp-Occ-Cat:

derechos-dreches-drets
razon-rason-raó
Leasnam   Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:17 pm GMT
<<According to this paragraph Occitan sounds closer to Spanish than Catalan >>

Franco,
Is Occitan pronounced the way it is written? or is it similar to French in that bookstaves can be silent (like "dreches"--how is that outspoken?).

If it be outpoken the way it is written, I would eath agree that it is more like Spanish. Very much so.
Evinória   Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:48 pm GMT
Se multiplicó en Brasil el interés por el español


MADRID (EFE).- La enseñanza del español en Brasil atraviesa "el mejor momento de su historia". Frente al millón de estudiantes de esta lengua que había en 2006, hay ya cinco millones y lo probable es que se siga "avanzando a esa velocidad", aunque aún faltan unos 12.000 profesores para lograrlo.

Los datos correspondientes a Brasil son sin duda los más llamativos del Anuario del Instituto Cervantes 2009 "El español en el mundo", que fue presentado ayer por la directora de la institución, Carmen Caffarel, y por su director académico, Francisco Moreno.

El anuario comenzó a editarse en 1998 para impulsar las investigaciones sobre el español y su papel como lengua de comunicación internacional, y en esta nueva entrega se ofrecen también cifras sobre Rusia, donde hay al menos 20.000 estudiantes de esta lengua, y del Africa subsahariana, que cuenta con más de medio millón de personas que lo aprenden.

Los datos de 2009 dan "muchas alegrías" sobre Brasil, dijo Caffarel. Tras la aprobación en 2005 de la ley que obliga a ofrecer la asignatura de español en los centros públicos de enseñanza media de ese país, varias estadísticas cifran en 2.400.000 los alumnos que estudian esta lengua en ese nivel educativo y estiman que, en la enseñanza primaria, esa cantidad puede ser superior, aunque no se dispone de datos exactos.

Esas cifras del gran país americano "irán creciendo, según todas las previsiones", dijo la directora del Cervantes, institución que cuenta con 74 centros en 44 países.

Si tras la aprobación de la mencionada ley se dijo que hacían falta en Brasil unos 200.000 profesores de esta lengua, la realidad se ha encargado de demostrar que esa cifra era exagerada porque, según el Anuario 2009, serían necesarios "unos 11.000 o 12.000" docentes, que se sumarían a los 7000 actuales.

"Esa cantidad de profesores la puede afrontar el Ministerio de Educación brasileño", destacó Francisco Moreno, si bien los autores del estudio, Pedro Benítez y Alvaro Martínez-Cachero, señalan que las condiciones salariales y las dificultades presupuestarias "pueden ensombrecer" la incorporación de ese profesorado.

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/nota.asp?nota_id=1226600
gui   Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:49 am GMT
« Is Occitan pronounced the way it is written? or is it similar to French in that bookstaves can be silent (like "dreches"--how is that outspoken?). »

Like French, certain letters in Occitan are silent. Final r is silent. Final n is also sometimes silent, and in some dialects there is a tendency towards weakening or deletion of plural s in feminine noun phrases : las cambas peludas - "la cambo peludo"

Consonant clusters are simplified :
dels - "das" ; als - "as" ; cors - "kous" ; jorns - "jour" or "joun" ; temps - "tens" ; blancs - "blas"

"dreches" is pronounced as it is written (ch like in English "march"). A variant is "dreits" which is closer to Catalan "drets"

Compare written Occitan with spoken Occitan :

http://www.roundshare.com/790cacar_lo_lion.mp3

Text :
Au vilatge, venián d'aprene que lo professor Engarran de Fontarecha, dins son pargue dau Sèrre dels Bessons, s'èra fach manjar per son lion.

N'aviá pas laissat que lo capèl e las lunetas.

E la bèstia fèra aviá escapat, corrissiá las garrigas.

Los caçaires avián apreparat sas balas e sos carrelets de las batudas als singlars, dins l'espèra de campejar lo lion.

Era tròp polit.

Ricard encambèt sa bicicleta e seguiguèt Marquet cap al vilatge per ne saupre mai.

Aval, l'embolh èra pas de dire.

Tot lo mond per carrièras a discutir e a bracejar.

Los òmes, faròts dins sos vestits de caça, se disián que se deviá avançar l'obertura de quinze jorns.

Aquela obertura que començava de se far languir.

Finit d'aliscar lo fusilh sus la taula de la cosina en somiant de las lèbres e dels perdigalhs :

i aviá una gròssa bèstia, que quitament los singlars a costat èra pas res de tot.

Los fusilhs lusissián.

Quau arrapariá una tèsta de lion au mur de son ostau ?

La pus fabulosa istòria de caça dempuòi lo bèstiari dau Gavaudan anava se debanar aquí, dins la garriga ...

E d'abòrd caliá venjar aquel malurós monsur de Fontarecha, tan brave qu'èra, lo paure el, darrièr sas lunetas espessas ...
meus   Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:09 pm GMT
<<Aquela obertura que començava de se far languir. >> It seems more like Portuguese than French.
James   Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:43 pm GMT
As far as I know the Czech and Slovak languages are actually ONE language or rather two dialects of One language but because of POLITICS AGAIN, it is considered TWO languages.

A person from the Czech Republic can understand someone from Slovakia perfectly well and have intelligent conversation without the need to use another language.

Therefor I say they are ONE language but POLITICS is getting in the WAY as usual.
fraz   Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:25 am GMT
<<As far as I know the Czech and Slovak languages are actually ONE language or rather two dialects of One language but because of POLITICS AGAIN, it is considered TWO languages.

A person from the Czech Republic can understand someone from Slovakia perfectly well and have intelligent conversation without the need to use another language.

Therefor I say they are ONE language but POLITICS is getting in the WAY as usual. >>

You often find examples of languages that are mutually comprehensible to a large extent but are badged as separate languages due to nation borders. But about Swiss German? That can be very difficult for many German citizens to understand (apart from those in the south).
Baldewin   Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:06 pm GMT
The weird thing is, intelligibility put aside, once they're officially different languages they often ignore each other completely. Now how much sense does that make? It's like a prescribed rule set some mob of zombies feels obliged to follow. Gosh, people are stupid.
snakelips   Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:18 am GMT
Hi, Czech and Slovak are not so intelligible anymore. They were when it was all one country, but since the breakup, the people under age 18 can't understand the other language so well because they don't hear it that much. Anyway, at the far ends of the dialect chain, in the far west of Czech and the far east of Slovak, they cannot understand each other. It's perfectly legitimate to split Czech and Slovak. Breton and Scots Gaelic are not even fully intelligible within themselves. The far east dialects of Scots Gaelic cannot understand the standard form and intelligiblity of the Breton dialects is somewhat marginal or problematic. But there is intelligibility of Cornish and Breton, to what degree, I am not sure.

Swiss German is a separate language. 40% intelligible with Standard German, if that.
Baldewin   Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:33 pm GMT
Yes, but exchange of information is always interesting when extremely similar language can help give it. What else than tribal nationalism would make a Slovak ignore Czech or vice versa (who's more interested in the other by the way)?
Juan   Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:30 pm GMT
>> As far as I know the Czech and Slovak languages are actually ONE language or rather two dialects of One language but because of POLITICS AGAIN, it is considered TWO languages. <<

¿Es veritad que ellos pueden comprender e fablar la otra lingua ca son similares?
JPT   Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:48 pm GMT
Czech and Slovak are seperate languages, and if politics divided them it was over 1000 years ago to the collapse of Velkomoravska. The languages remained very closely related (open borders in Europe is a return to roots more than a modern phenomenon). Much of what kept Czech and Slovak so close compared to say either with Polish, was that standardized written Czech (which was the language of the church and literature of Middle Ages Slovakia) was the model for what became standardized Slovak. There is also some factor of a dialect continuim- so a Moravian dialect Czech speaker and someone from Bratislava will understand each other very well. Someone from Prague and someone from a village outside Kosice on the other hand will have a good bit of difficulty. Mutual intellegibiliy between the two languages ranges from about 70%-95% depending on the dialect pairing. Slovak students in Czech Universities have to pass a language test, though that is because the written languages are far more different than spoken.

Also, I know wikipedia is a grain of salt source, but their article on the differences between Czech and Slovak provide a decent summary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differences_between_Slovak_and_Czech_languages

<Yes, but exchange of information is always interesting when extremely similar language can help give it. What else than tribal nationalism would make a Slovak ignore Czech or vice versa (who's more interested in the other by the way)? >

Slovak's don't ignore Czech, many Slovak students study at Czech Universities, and Czech language literature and media exist at an almost even level with Slovak in modern Slovakia. Czech's on the other hand learn little of Slovak (we assume we can understand most of it anyway, and aren't trying to study in Slovakia- so no need to learn formal Slovak), intelligibility problems are usually on our end.

It's not nationalism, just we don't need to learn it- we need (if we have any ambition of post-graduate specializations) to learn English. Most Czechs and Slovaks have a strong affinity for the other, granted our view of Slovaks is somewhat condesending (they are somewhat backward and "folksy"- but more outgoing, optimistic, and friendly). Still the decision to split (which was a waste of money, considering most of the changes are being undone by common EU membership) was made by the ambitions of politicians, not nationalism as in Yugoslavia. That said the only reason Czechoslovakia was to be sufficiently sized to mount opposition to foreign domination (which didn't work anyway) and in modern Europe such needs are obsolete.