Italian Languages

Emmanuel   Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:48 am GMT
Due mainly to political reasons, Romance languages that developed within Italy's modern day borders are named 'dialects', even by its native speakers; however, due to the increasing influence of the Italian language, many of these are starting to become affected, if not dying out. Anyhow, my questions are: 1. How many Romance languages are spoken in Italy, eg Italian, Neapolitan, Sicilian, Venetian? 2. How many speakers, approximately, do they have? (Ethnologue's estimates seem a little preposterous.) Thank you to anybody who contributes! :)
Emmanuel   Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:51 am GMT
Oh, and, lastly, how 'close' is Italian to the Tuscan dialect--that is, could it be called a diglossia? I've heard the Italian language is merely a semi-artificial language based on Tuscan, but is this true?
reality   Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:29 am GMT
Yes, italian is heavily based on Tuscan and is somewhat an artificial language, based on upper class florentine.
Almost every province of Italy has its own dialect but we can group them into families:

1) piedmontese
2) ligurian (very similar to piedmontese)
3) lombard dialects (roughly divided into western lombard and eastern lombard)
4) emilian
5) venetian
6) friulan

1-6 Northern dialects

7) tuscan
8) marchigian
9) umbrian
10) laziale or romanesque

7-10 central dialects , where 8) 9) are very similar to romanesque

11) neapolitan
12) pugliese
13) abruzzese
14) calabrian
15) sicilian

11-15) southern dialects

16) sardinian

Sardinian is a separate language
Emmanuel   Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:53 pm GMT
Very informative! Thank you.
Post   Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:28 pm GMT
Piedmontese, Ligurian, Lombard and Emilian-Romagnolo are part of Gallo-italic group. Gallo-italic is a language related with Occitan and Catalan languages.
joolsey   Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:13 pm GMT
<< Almost every province of Italy has its own DIALECT but we can group them into families: >>

More correct to say several regions have their own language within which one can find varying dialects. Liguarian, Piemontese, Lombard, Venetian, Emilian-Romagnol etc. are all languages in their own right. As are Campano (Neapolitan), Sicilian and, even more remotely related, Sardinian.

On top of that, the Italian that is spoken throughout those regions is heavily influenced by the substratum of regional languages and accents- but it is still standard Italian.
joolsey   Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:21 pm GMT
Put it this way...

Italian language derives from the upper-class Florentine variant (and to a lesser degree fused with literary patterns which Dante borrowed from Sicilian poetry) of the Tuscan dialect of the Central Italian language; whose other main dialects included Laziale-Romanesco, Marchigian and Umbrian. It was just that this educated Tuscan form enjoyed greater prestige and was also coincidentally the Central Italian variant which was most intelligible to Northern speakers of those various Gallo-Romance languages (where languages like Venetian also held commercial and overseas prestige)...and therefore it served best as a lingua franca throughout the peninsula.
Emmanuel   Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:38 am GMT
Thank you for your posts, joolsey. I appreciate it. In regards to Ligurian, Lombard, Piedmontese, et cetera, are these mutually comprehensible? In other words, because they belong to the Gallo-Italian branch, what exactly distinguishes them as separate languages? Anyhow, I think it is really interesting how Italy has such a linguistic diversity; on the other hand, it is upsetting to know they may be dying out, as they are a part of Italian heritage. I wonder if official regional recognition or even official status would help them survive? The only reason I had asked what Italian was based on is because it has always seemed a little bit 'artificial' to me. I do not mean that in a bad way, trust me, but it just seems it is too 'literary'. For instance, in England few people at all speak 'BBC English'--that is, with a 'Received Pronuncation' accent and all. It is the regional accents that make England what it is. I feel the same way with Italy, since although a common language is necessary, regional languages should have the same right to co-exist. Anyhow, I was wondering how I could go about learning Neapolitan, Sicilian or even Venetian, if possible? Any help would be appreciated. Thaaank you! :)
Reality   Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:39 am GMT
I partially disagree with joolsay.
Italian dialects are not separated languages in their own right. They are all dialects of Italian (except sardinian and maybe friulan), at this point of their evolution. Too influenced by the mother language. Maybe in the past there was much more diversity.
Emmanuel, I speak a gallo-italian dialect and I can naturally understand all the others one of this branch (except some words here and there, obviously), if spoken slowly and without too much accent.
Guest   Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:47 am GMT
I can understand Catalan too and that does not mean it is a dialect of Spanish.
rep   Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:04 am GMT
Sardinian is qiute different language from Italian.It has some features of Portuguese or Spanish:
Sardinian:
Totu sos èsseres umanos naschint lìberos e eguales in dinnidade e in deretos. Issos tenent sa resone e sa cussèntzia e depent operare s'unu cun s'àteru cun ispìritu de fraternidade
Portuguese:
Todos os seres humanos nascem livres e iguais em dignidade e em direitos. Dotados de razão e de consciência, devem agir uns para com os outros em espírito de fraternidade.
Italian:
Tutti gli esseri umani nascono liberi ed eguali in dignità e diritti. Essi sono dotati di ragione e di coscienza e devono agire gli uni verso gli altri in spirito di fratellanza.
Sardinian:
Cunsiderende chi su reconnoschimentu de sa dinnidade inerente a totu sos membros de sa famìlia umana e de sos deretos issoro eguales e inalienàbiles costìtuit su fundamentu de sa libertade, de sa zustìssia e de sa paghe in su mundu,
Portuguese:
Considerando que o reconhecimento da dignidade inerente a todos os membros da família humana e dos seus direitos iguais e inalienáveis constitui o fundamento da liberdade, da justiça e da paz no mundo
Italian:
Considerato che il riconoscimento della dignità inerente a tutti i membri della famiglia umana e dei loro diritti, uguali ed inalienabili, costituisce il fondamento della libertà, della giustizia e della pace nel mondo
http://www.lexilogos.com/declaration/index_english.htm
reality   Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:20 am GMT
Guest, please define what is a language and what is a dialect for you.
Obviously this is questionable (personally I recognize only sardinian as a truly separate language, and maybe friulan).
I meant only that, having never had the dialects in Italy an official status, and having never been promoted by medias like newspapers, tv and so on, nowadays speakers use too many italian words and directly translated italian phrases when using their dialect.
bonnaire   Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:31 am GMT
« In regards to Ligurian, Lombard, Piedmontese, et cetera, are these mutually comprehensible? In other words, because they belong to the Gallo-Italian branch, what exactly distinguishes them as separate languages? »

They are similar the way French is similar to Italian -- you may recognize cognates owing to the fact that they have common ancestry, but they are not mutually comprehensible. What distinguishes Ligurian, Lombard, and Piemontese as separate languages? Differences in grammar, syntax, vocabulary, verb conjugations, etc.

Genoese dialect of Ligurian :
Poæ nòstro, che ti stæ in çê, ch'o segge santificòu o teu nomme, ch'o vegne o teu regno; ch'a segge fæta a teu voentæ, coscì in çê comme in sciâ tæra. Danne ancheu o nòstro pan cotidian, e condonn-ine i nòstri débiti, comme niätri i condonemmo a-i nòstri debitoî e no stâne à indùe in intentaçion, ma che ti ne lìbei da-o mâ.

Milanese dialect of Lombard :
Pader nòster che te seet in ciel sia santificaa el tò nòmm vegna el tò regn, sia fada la toa volontà, come in ciel anca in terra. Dann incoeu el nòster pan d'ògni dì e rimettom i nòster debit come numm je rimettom a i nòster debitor e tirom nò in tentazion ma liberom dal mal.

Piedmontese :
O Nostr Pare che të ses an cel, tò nòm a sia santificà. Tò regno a vena, toa volontà a sia faita su la tera com al ciel. Dane ancheuj nòst pan cotidian, e përdonene ij nòstri debit, com noi i përdonoma a coj ch'a l'han offendune, e lassene nen tombé an tentassion, ma libererene d'ogni mal.

Sometimes even dialects of a language seem like separate languages, so who's to say what is dialect and what is language ?

Monegasque dialect of Ligurian :
Païre nostru che si' ünt'u celu sice santificàu u to' nume, che u to' regnu arrive sciü de nui che ün terra, sice fà a to' vuruntà. Dane ancœi cuma tüti i giurni u nostru pan, perduna i nostri pecài cuma perdunamu ün acheli che n'an fàu de mà nun ne lascià piyà d'a tentaçiun e libèrane d'u mà.
Guest   Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:31 am GMT
Gallo-Italian languages like Lombard o Piedmontese belong to a different branch within the Romance languages group than Standard Italian , so evidently they are different languages. I'm not going to define what a language is because I can't give a technical definition, but that Gallo-Italian dialects are all of them different languages than standard Italian is assumed by all the linguists, so there is no point in discussing that.
rep   Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:12 am GMT
All Gallo Italian "languages" haven't noun plural ending -s. Occitan (-s)Catalan (-s) and Sardinian (-os,-as)have this ending.