french and english creoles, why no spanish ones?

Baldewin   Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:10 pm GMT
'Petit nègre' was such a 'language' they taught, assuming negroes wouldn't be intellectually capable of gaining mastery of the French language so fast. Spaniards used both the native languages and complete Spanish.
You also have 'Basic English' which is heavily simplified, but it's obviously not that popular due to the insulting connotation of restricting the language.
PARISIEN   Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:28 pm GMT
<< they taught creoles in the colonies instead of standard French >>

-- Of course they didn't, stupid.

<< Due to their bad colonial policies French is much less important than English nowadays. >>

-- It wasn't a matter of colonial policy, it was the demographics, stupid.
Unlike Britain, France never needed to export people. The country was under-populated in the 17/18th centuries, with a very low growth rate due to widespread literacy and hence early birth control. Emigration to Canada always was exceptional, because it was generally unneeded.

Locally, if there were a little to much people in some Norman village, a dozen of families would sign a agreement, sell their goods, hire a ship and sail to the Saint-Lawrence, taking along a priest, a lawyer, a schoolmaster and a couple of merchants, to set up a new settlement in New France. But this happened rather rarely.

At the time France lost control of North America, there were less than 100,000 people scattered over a huge territory from Québec to New-Orleans over the Mississipi valley, facing over two million British colonists.

At that time France itself was a target for immigration, with a constant flow of German immigrants.
Franco   Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:28 pm GMT
<<'Petit nègre' was such a 'language' they taught, assuming negroes wouldn't be intellectually capable of gaining mastery of the French language so fast. Spaniards used both the native languages and complete Spanish.

>>
It was the Catholic priests who taught the natives in their own language. Civil authorities in Americas used Spanish only. In theory everybody had to use Spanish, but for example in Paraguay the Jesuits sistematically used Guarany. That's the reason why Guarany is so healthy, despite Spanish is also extensively known.
Komtu   Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:19 am GMT
Very simple reason to your question. When the French and the English invaded these places, they did not enforce their language as much as the Spanish. When the Spanish colonized the Americas, they pretty much forced it into you. You HAD to learn Spanish, or you would be killed. Now, there were places where the Spanish did learn the native language, but this was more prominent during the time after New Spain had already been built up, meaning that it was mostly parts of South America, and the Phillipines. It has nothing to do with vowel simplicity. Spanish in fact does not have just five vowels, its vowels change according to stress, position, and preceding and following consonants. If all these were counted, Spanish would probably have about 13 consonants. They're not counted because of the simple fact that these vowels are only used in these cases, and don't have any accents to mark them(unlike Italian, which also varies with closed and open "e", but puts an accent on SOME words to help out) French at the most has 13 oral and 4 nasal vowels(total=17), but normally only 10 oral and 2-3 nasal(total=12-13) and English only 7 normal length and 4 long vowels (total 11, not including diphthongs, which, technically, are not vowels. English has 20-21 consonants ,2 semivowels and 2 affricates. French has 17-18 consonants, 1 semivowel, and 2 affricates. Spanish has 17-22, 1-2 semivowels, and 2-3 affricates (semivowels included are only ones that are achieved by a consonant letter, not by diphthongs, if it included diphthongs, English would still have 2, French 3, and Spanish 2).
So, the fact we don't see that many Spanish creoles is because of the force used to enforce it.
We still hear dialects of Spanish that use extensive native and African vocabulary, making it very unintelligible to a speaker of neutral Mexican, Columbian, and European Spanish (Neutral here meaning the speech of the educated), but they usually use Spanish grammar, meaning they are still considered Spanish.
Visitor   Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:39 am GMT
<< Chamorro is spoken in Guam and Northern Mariana islands, in Oceania. In these islands Spanish was a minority language. Nowadays, people study Spanish and/or Chamorro by a lot of students. >>

Japanese and Tagalog are widely spoken than Spanish in Guam and Marianas Islands. 99% opted for Japanese as the second foreign language and not Spanish which is more popular.

<< Finally, Chabacano is spoken in Philippines and Malaysia, in Asia. In this countries, Spanish was a minority language. In Philippines, Government wants to reintroduce Spanish as third language of the country. >>

Spanish is not yet implemented in the Philippine secondary schools for the reason that there is not enough funds. French on the other hand is now taught in 13 science high school there and will be extended to oter schools.
Franco   Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:37 am GMT
<<Spanish in fact does not have just five vowels>>

No, it has 30 or more.


<<Spanish would probably have about 13 consonants>>

LOL
Gate-crasher   Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:12 am GMT
As many people have observed, there are/were Spanish creoles, especially in the Philippines. Whereas most people focus on the English/French based creoles of the Caribbean, they seem to forget the most successful creole of all, Brazilian Portuguese.
* * *   Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:27 am GMT
Spanish emigrants in Latin America were predominantly soldiers, most of them half-Whites from Andalusia, who weren't reluctant to marry natives or Black women and to have intercourse with several of them (willing or not).

That way the language was better passed to the next generation, and the Spaniards were able to fully Hispanize large territories with relatively few men.
Franco   Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:16 am GMT
I would not call Chabacano a Spanish creole. it is just an Asian language with many Spanish words. 30% of English vocabulary is French and another 30% is Latin. Does it make English a creole? In Equatorial Guinea the admixture of Spanish people and natives is non-existent, yet they speak standard Spanish plus the indigenous tongues.
Spanish creoles just don't exist.
Português   Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:28 am GMT
Whats the point of spanish dont have an creole.
Spaniards speak shouting,everybody knows that and is what make any creole dialect sounds sophisticated.