I can post some links if you'd like greg:
http://pagina1.altervista.org/historyaitalian.htm
http://pagina1.altervista.org/historyaitalian.htm
Spanish and Italian are much closer than Italian and French
Gringo: I know about phonetics. I am fully aware of the great influence that other cultures have had on Iberia. Castilian was subject to just as much influence by invading cultures, especially Celtic and Arabic. Incidentally, Spanish has a larger Arabic vocabulary than Portuguese. In any case, Iberia was overun by the many different cultural groups who all exerted some influence.
By the way, which eastern european culture influenced the Portuguese language?? There were the Suevi, Visigoths, Vandals, but eastern european as in what? And how could an eastern culture influence Portugal without influencing Spain? After all, if you are coming from eastern europe, you must cut across Spain first before arriving in Portugal.
Lastly, you are entitled to your opinions, but you are wrong when you say that communication is mostly one way between Spanish and Portuguese. I have been to many Spanish speaking countries, and the Portuguese tourists (from Portugal) always communicate effortlessly with the Spanish speaking locals. Are you suggesting that the hundreds of times I've seen this firsthand is a figment of my imagination? I have also seen Italians struggling to be understood by Spanish speakers time and again. This is empirical evidence, observed firsthand, repeatedly. You can believe what you want, but I base my judgments on concrete, observable evidence. Jorge
By the way, which eastern european culture influenced the Portuguese language?? There were the Suevi, Visigoths, Vandals, but eastern european as in what? And how could an eastern culture influence Portugal without influencing Spain? After all, if you are coming from eastern europe, you must cut across Spain first before arriving in Portugal.
Lastly, you are entitled to your opinions, but you are wrong when you say that communication is mostly one way between Spanish and Portuguese. I have been to many Spanish speaking countries, and the Portuguese tourists (from Portugal) always communicate effortlessly with the Spanish speaking locals. Are you suggesting that the hundreds of times I've seen this firsthand is a figment of my imagination? I have also seen Italians struggling to be understood by Spanish speakers time and again. This is empirical evidence, observed firsthand, repeatedly. You can believe what you want, but I base my judgments on concrete, observable evidence. Jorge
S.P.Q.R : merci pour le lien — c'est très gentil à toi. Mais ça ne prouve toujours pas l'identité des phonétismes de l'orolatin classique et du toscan moderne.
Dear Greg:
I never said that C. Latin phonology and italian one are identical, just are closer than other languages,a bit at least, at least from what i've read. Then ithink that the site cites some affirmed linguaits with their books, i think it would be usefull reading one of the bokks they wrote, they explain more better than the site, sorry if i don't post teh entire chapter but my english is not of that level.
I never said that C. Latin phonology and italian one are identical, just are closer than other languages,a bit at least, at least from what i've read. Then ithink that the site cites some affirmed linguaits with their books, i think it would be usefull reading one of the bokks they wrote, they explain more better than the site, sorry if i don't post teh entire chapter but my english is not of that level.
Jorge
««Castilian was subject to just as much influence by invading cultures, especially Celtic and Arabic.»»
That is why I find funny no one ever confirms if the origin of the word is Celtic or Latin or if it has any other origin, there is very little of the Pre-Roman languages known and it gets even less if everything gets simplified to Latin.
Latin was also influenced by other languages:
http://ling.cornell.edu/Weiss/CGL_34_Language_Contact_5.pdf
««By the way, which eastern european culture influenced the Portuguese language?? There were the Suevi, Visigoths, Vandals, but eastern european as in what?”»»
What I wrote was:
“Portuguese has more late East-European tribe’s influence, this is what makes it different from Spanish.”
But if you want to refer to a culture I can mention that the tribes seem to be connected to the following cultures: Przeworsk culture (Vandals), Wielbark Culture (Goths), Shipovskaya culture (Alans). The Suevi seemed to be located near the Baltic Sea that was known at that time as the Mare Suebicum.
They are Eastern tribes because of their last location before entering the Roman Empire. They were quickly Romanised so no traces of their previous culture was found i Iberia (and they had wandered a long time in the Roman empire). But you can not expect them to speak the Hispanic Latin with a Latin accent.
«« And how could an eastern culture influence Portugal without influencing Spain? After all, if you are coming from eastern Europe, you must cut across Spain first before arriving in Portugal.»»
Galicia is in Spain, I did not say it did not influence Spain there is enough vocabulary in Castilian to say there was an influence at least from the Visigoths in Spain. We were talking about phonology, if you can say in which way they influenced the phonology of Spanish. Or give another explanation to why Portuguese and Castilian have different phonology although they were under the same influences. You know that in Europe Portuguese is mistaken with some sort of Russian or slavic language by most people that that listens to EuPortuguese, although it is a Romance language, I have seen this happening many times (of course by people that can not speak or understand Russian).
“Lastly, you are entitled to your opinions, but you are wrong when you say that communication is mostly one way between Spanish and Portuguese.”
I was answering to the comment of JR Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:06 am GMT
Portuguese many times have to make use of Portuñol to be understood while it is easier for a Portuguese to understand Castilian. It is the Spanish speaker who most times says that he does not understand spoken Portuguese not the other way round. I have seen many Spanish speakers with no difficulty in communicating the Portuguese speaker and many other with many difficulties, it just depends of their listening skills or good will.
««Castilian was subject to just as much influence by invading cultures, especially Celtic and Arabic.»»
That is why I find funny no one ever confirms if the origin of the word is Celtic or Latin or if it has any other origin, there is very little of the Pre-Roman languages known and it gets even less if everything gets simplified to Latin.
Latin was also influenced by other languages:
http://ling.cornell.edu/Weiss/CGL_34_Language_Contact_5.pdf
««By the way, which eastern european culture influenced the Portuguese language?? There were the Suevi, Visigoths, Vandals, but eastern european as in what?”»»
What I wrote was:
“Portuguese has more late East-European tribe’s influence, this is what makes it different from Spanish.”
But if you want to refer to a culture I can mention that the tribes seem to be connected to the following cultures: Przeworsk culture (Vandals), Wielbark Culture (Goths), Shipovskaya culture (Alans). The Suevi seemed to be located near the Baltic Sea that was known at that time as the Mare Suebicum.
They are Eastern tribes because of their last location before entering the Roman Empire. They were quickly Romanised so no traces of their previous culture was found i Iberia (and they had wandered a long time in the Roman empire). But you can not expect them to speak the Hispanic Latin with a Latin accent.
«« And how could an eastern culture influence Portugal without influencing Spain? After all, if you are coming from eastern Europe, you must cut across Spain first before arriving in Portugal.»»
Galicia is in Spain, I did not say it did not influence Spain there is enough vocabulary in Castilian to say there was an influence at least from the Visigoths in Spain. We were talking about phonology, if you can say in which way they influenced the phonology of Spanish. Or give another explanation to why Portuguese and Castilian have different phonology although they were under the same influences. You know that in Europe Portuguese is mistaken with some sort of Russian or slavic language by most people that that listens to EuPortuguese, although it is a Romance language, I have seen this happening many times (of course by people that can not speak or understand Russian).
“Lastly, you are entitled to your opinions, but you are wrong when you say that communication is mostly one way between Spanish and Portuguese.”
I was answering to the comment of JR Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:06 am GMT
Portuguese many times have to make use of Portuñol to be understood while it is easier for a Portuguese to understand Castilian. It is the Spanish speaker who most times says that he does not understand spoken Portuguese not the other way round. I have seen many Spanish speakers with no difficulty in communicating the Portuguese speaker and many other with many difficulties, it just depends of their listening skills or good will.
I never said otherwise. I talk to foreign exchange students from Brazil and Portugal and they can understand me (although not always), and I can understand them (not without difficulty), but it is definitely harder for me to understand them, than it is form them to understand me. I seem to understand the Brazilians better than the Portuguese. I can see why Portunhol might come in handy, especially, like I said before, the other person doesn't have experience with the other language. No doubt that my experience with Portuguese helps me understand it better, but not every Spanish-speaker has the exposure to the language that I do.
We Brazilians adore Spanish language.
MTV Latina has been favorite tv for most of us for ages.
And Argentinian Much Music is great as well.
Valeu galera!?
MTV Latina has been favorite tv for most of us for ages.
And Argentinian Much Music is great as well.
Valeu galera!?
I am not a scholar but do speak the dialect taught to me by my parents who came from Italy in the region near Lago Maggiore, more specifically the towns of Cadrezzate and Angera. I have found on my trips back to that region that less and less of the younger people speak the dialect making my communication more difficult each time. Thankfully I have many relatives that speak both the dialect and "real" Italian. Yes, I should learn Italian. I think that if I spent enough time there I would be able to pick it up.
Since retirement I have become interested in the origins of the dialect. MY search resulted in my landing here. Where can I find more information?
As to Spanish I find it difficult to understand the Mexican language which is spoken the the Hispanic population here in the state of Illinois USA.
Since retirement I have become interested in the origins of the dialect. MY search resulted in my landing here. Where can I find more information?
As to Spanish I find it difficult to understand the Mexican language which is spoken the the Hispanic population here in the state of Illinois USA.
It depends in Mexico. If the Mexican uses more dialectization and indigenous root words as many do in the North in particular than many averageally educated castellano speakers will probably have difficulty. Most educated Mexicans are easily understandable to all other Latin populations if they don't use any regionalisms in their speech. I found this out because in the area that I live their are a lot of Mexicans of Northern Mexican decent that recently moved here. I was once asked as part of my practicum for school to translate for some of them some legal documentation. At that time I thought spanish was pretty general in speech eventhough I knew there were some differences. I come from a Br. Portuguese and Caribbean Spanish background (Panamanian) but when I tried to translate for them I found it very difficult in some cases to understand some of them. They could understand me perfectly but understanding them was another story. I had to have my Honduran friend help me translate the documents since his dialect is much closer to theirs. Needless to say that was the only day I did that but I am Know trying to study regional patterns in castellano speech so i don't ever run into that problem again.
Thats my real last name, if you look it up you will find many Italians and many more Spanish with this last name. My last name is not the only instance of this in either country. Which I think would show the stong relations of the two countrys. Also why not take a look at the way both languages are written? You'll also see another instance of their strong relation as opposed to French. And I'm not refering to spelling. Any one who learns the Spanish or Italian alphbet can read out loud the sentences,may not know what they are saying but they can read it out loud with no problems, how many people do think can do that with French?
I as much as I wish I could tell you I know what that means, I can't. Any chance for trying it in Engilsh? What langauge is that?
Can any one else help me out here? I did like to know what he's saying.
Thanks!:)
Thanks!:)