English teachers should be native English speakers

danny in russia   Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:43 pm GMT
Discuss.
Clari   Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:05 am GMT
Not necessarily. You may not have native speakers to teach you English in the school, but you can listen to audio books by native speakers and watch YouTube video by native speakers. Is BBC and CNN available in Russia? If yes, you can listen to BBC and CNN.
danny in russia   Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:21 am GMT
CNN and BBC are sure nice but you can't learn through television what you can and should learn just interacting in English. If your teacher has a heavy accent, and most of them do, and if the way they form their sentences is unnatural, not to mention grammatic mistakes, if they speak English little while talking in their native language all the time, you don't get that kind of interaction and no amount of CNN is going to help you.
Irony   Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:30 am GMT
Нет, твой преподаватель не виноват в том, что у тебя плохой английский. Проблема в том, что у тебя неадекватные мозги... Не по вине твоего учителя взорвалась АЭС в Чернобыле.
danny in russia   Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:54 am GMT
If you heard any of my teachers speak English you wouldn't blame my inadequacies on anything else, I assure you.
Pigs or Pork?   Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:31 am GMT
Speaking of crisis:

PIGS:
Portugal
Italy
Greece
Spain


PORK:
Portugal
österreich
Romania
Kazakhstan
Net proshcheniya Godzilla   Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:46 am GMT
Нет, учителя неважны. Может быть, в прошлом это было по-другому, но все изменилось с тех пор, как появился интернет. Я знаю много людей, которые САМОСТОЯТЕЛЬНО достигли очень приличного уровня БЕЗ ПОМОЩИ КАКИХ-ЛИБО УЧИТЕЛЕЙ!!! ЗАПОМНИ ЭТО.


Итак, у меня остается только один вероятный вывод. Ты неадекватный и бездарный. Ты неполноценное детище адского Чернобыльского огня. Искажённый зародыш Годзиллы живет внутри тебя. Спасения таким созданиям, к сожалению, нет. Годзиллу погубили БЕСПОЩАДНО. И ты обречён на несчастный конец... Ты появился на свете, значит, Бог провалил Сотворение Мира. Ты, подлое существо, возник среди красоты первобытного мира, и тем самым, испортил его навсегда. Ты, а не змея какая-то, уничтожил земной Рай. Люди страдают из-за того, что ты появился на свете. Ты преступник. Каждое преступление - твое. Ты убийца. Погибают хорошие люди и руководят подлецы. Из-за тебя. Ты тварь. Грязь. Редкая, гнусная мразь.

Вернись к твоей Годзилле, ко Злу. В царстве человечества ты никому не нужен. Твой родной дом - четвертый энергоблок Чернобыльской АЭС.
Clari   Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:50 am GMT
You can't count on your English teachers to teach you good pronunciation and right accent. That is quite unrealistic, they are there to teach you grammar. You should consider yourself lucky since you can still watch BBC and CNN, while these two channels are prohibited in China for political reasons. So you can imagine most Chinese have even heavier accent than Russian.
N.   Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:29 am GMT
You know what's unrealistic? Hoping that students will care so much about their accent that they'll actually try to improve it. Get this: they don't! Actually, they try to avoid as much as possible the language, and if besides doing their homework they actually try to study English in some different ways, well then they're in the vast minority. I've been to several non-native-English-speaking countries, in fact I'm living in Italy right now, and besides countries like Greece or Albania, where movies are often broadcasted in English with subtitles, the rest are all translated. Same thing goes for books, video games etc. No one in Italy will bother about the english language, they will immediately change the video game's language to italian, buy the italian version of the book and browse the (relatively minuscule) italian portion of the internet.

That's why it's VERY important for teachers to teach correct pronunciation. But I don't see how that's possible when all I see are teachers with terribly conspicuous accents, almost ostentatiously close minded(as in "Americanisms are wrong", regardless of the fact that the RP they're teaching will not only be more difficult to learn but is spoken but a small percentage of England, IF they're to go to England someday) and with poor knowledge of anything that's not in the books and sounds similar to their language (I don't understand why but here in Italy, the teachers actually either discourage the students to use the words which are almost identical to italian, or just plain simply deny their existence.)

English is being terribly neglected.

First, there should be AT LEAST a period every school day dedicated to the English grammar.
Second, there should be AT LEAST 3 other periods dedicated to the pronunciation, possibly if not compulsorily with a native speaker (Or better, speakers, since both American and British accents should be available).

So that's what should be done. But I doubt it won't. Becausseh peopleh arreh happyeh witteh deir accent (it). No matteh vere zey ah fhom (fr), if dey aren't naativ speekkers (Tr), they simply won't speak english correctly. The majority, at least.
you got owned   Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:48 am GMT
<<where movies are ... are all translated. Same thing goes for books, video games etc. No one in Italy will bother about the english language, they will immediately change the video game's language to italian, buy the italian version of the book and browse the (relatively minuscule) italian portion of the internet. >>


Exactly why pronunciation is NOT important.

- Watching movies. Don't need good pronunciation.
- Books. Don't need good pronunciation.
- Video games. Don't need good pronunciation.
- Browsing the internet. Don't need good pronunciation.

They all do require grammar though.


<,That's why it's VERY important for teachers to teach correct pronunciation.>>


How will having good pronunciation help them watch movies, read books, play games and browse the net if none of those things require even opening your mouth? They should learn grammar and writing instead, which is necessary for those things.


<<But I don't see how that's possible when all I see are teachers with terribly conspicuous accents>>


It's much easier to talk with someone who says "aiya wanna goa tooa ze cineema aandd vatacha a moovie becauuse iia have a lotttaa monnieee" than someone who says "I want movie look, money have lot I". The first sounds like someone you could actually have an interesting conversation with. The second is the kind who you get exasperated with and can't wait to get away from.


<<English is being terribly neglected.>>


Nah. It's fine. Grow a spine.


<<First, there should be AT LEAST a period every school day dedicated to the English grammar.
Second, there should be AT LEAST 3 other periods dedicated to the pronunciation, >>


That's ridiculous. As I said above, the things that most people would want to use English for do not require even opening your mouth. So why would you need to learn so much pronunciation. Grammar is MUCH more important. Even if you plan to become a professional, written skills are usually more important than speaking skills, especially for a foreigner.


<<Or better, speakers, since both American and British accents should be available). >>


This is absolutely wrong. It makes NO difference what accent the person has. 95% of students will never get beyond sounding ITALIAN, and will never have to even contemplate the question of which accent they should choose.


<<Becausseh peopleh arreh happyeh witteh deir accent (it). No matteh vere zey ah fhom (fr), if dey aren't naativ speekkers (Tr), they simply won't speak english correctly. >>


Speaking incorrectly is when you make a grammatical mistake. Speaking with an accent is not speaking incorrectly.
nah I didn't   Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:31 pm GMT
YougotOwned, I never said that grammar isn't important now, did I? My post was generally about how English is taught, not strictly to pronunciation. It's not that grammar is taught correctly in schools anyway, that's one of the reasons why there should be more English periods.



Besides the fact that non-native teachers make grammar mistakes too, especially because of their limited vocabulary (which I mentioned before), and besides the fact that learning wrong pronunciation will make it difficult for them to understand spoken English:

Grammar and pronunciation are correlated, and both very important parts of any language. So then, you're telling me that it's alright to just learn how to write a language, and speak it horribly? 'Cause that makes absolutely no sense at all. You DON'T know english if you don't speak it correctly. You may know the whole vocabulary, all the grammar rules and such, but if you speak it like a fucking baboon with a titanium vibrator up its ass, it's all in vain. And I'm sorry but what you're defending goes beyond an "accent". The Northern American is an accent. So is the Southern. So might be considered, at the most, someone who pronounces hard r's (like Russians, italians etc.). But a french or italian or what have you speaking and pronouncing >50% of the words incorrectly, like they do, that's not an accent, that's WRONG.

So, they either stop calling it English, and start calling it "Advanced Globish" or they start learning it correctly.

And this is coming from a non-native English speaker.
Naranjo   Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:48 pm GMT
You can't learn how to multiply or divide if you don't know how to add or subtract.

Phonetics and phonology should be the first step in language learning, only after this is mastered, you move on to more complex things like morphology and syntax.
Spain   Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:33 pm GMT
you got owned. Don't be a grammar freak.

Grammar is Important but it will never take you to fluency in the language of choice..!! The best way to learn a language is by getting Input in to the brain and Lots of it. If you don't listen to the Tv / radio and audio of the language you are learning then you will never advance.!!

Everything needs to be worked together.


Listening to [Audio / Tv / Radio ] Lots of it..!!

Reading and looking up the words for translation.

Putting single words and words in context in Flash card software.

Practicing pronounciation the best you can.

Talking in the language [ every chance you get ]

Writting in the language.

I know people that have studied from grammar books for years, or who have studied in college you know what..? they can not even string a good sentence together, never mind understand someone when they respond.!! and there pronounciation is very bad as well..!!

Grammar is good but not on its own..!!
you got owned   Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:11 pm GMT
Um, where did I say I was a grammar freak. All I said was that if you want to be able to do those things (reading, watching movies, playing video games, browsing the internet) it is more important to have good grammar than a good accent, because you don't even open your mouth to do those things.


<<So then, you're telling me that it's alright to just learn how to write a language, and speak it horribly?>>


Not necessarily horribly. I just don't think it's necessary to make your accent indistinguishable from a native's accent. If you're easy to understand, but still sound Italian, that's ok by me, and even preferable. There was a video clip circulating of a Dutch guy with an "apparently" perfect American accent. But it's only 99% perfect and that remaining 1% is enough to ruin the whole thing. The accent sounds exaggeratedly false and cringe-worthy. It would be much easier to listen to him if his accent were less "perfect".

Here it is, have a listen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpU0NxPhA78


<<And this is coming from a non-native English speaker. >>


And? Are you trying to tell me, a native speaker, what it's easier for me to listen to? Because the facts are that grammatical mistakes catch one's attention much more than an accent. If someone says "the dog walk" in a good accent I will be surprised and disgusted, "how could that asshole get a good accent but not know how to say that simple shit?". If someone says "ze dog walks" I will think, "foreigner, but at least he knows how to conjugate verbs".



<<The best way to learn a language is by getting Input in to the brain and Lots of it. If you don't listen to the Tv / radio and audio of the language you are learning then you will never advance.!!
>>


Um, that is exactly what I'm talking about. Getting input from books, TV, radio, games and the internet. None of those require pronunciation. But you do need grammar.
greg   Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:35 am GMT
Clari : « You may not have native speakers to teach you English in the school, but you can listen to audio books by native speakers and watch YouTube video by native speakers. »

Je partage ton avis. Et j'irai même plus loin : il est primordial d'enseigner une langue étrangère par le prisme de la langue maternelle. C'est-à-dire que un prof d'allemand peut être russe, français ou autrichien, ça n'a aucune importance, à partir du moment où il a fait sienne la langue maternelle des élèves au point d'être bilingue.

Découvrir une langue étrangère, c'est toujours une redécouverte de sa langue maternelle — et c'est sur ça que les profs devraient prioritairement s'appuyer. L'acquisition de la phonologie étrangère est importante mais pas primordiale. Ce qui compte, c'est connaître les mécanismes de sa langue maternelle pour aller vers ceux de la langue apprise et se les approprier.

Un linguiste qui défendait cette philosophie : Henri Adamczewski → http://www.linguistique.org .