Pronunciation of 'France'

Johannes thanks for the answer, I asked the question because quite often I've heard the statement that "In Germany, most people -- and virtually all young people -- speak good English".
So I wonder if that's really the case? And if it is, how come? When people here discussed the Dutch who are generally able to speak good English, they came to the conclusion that it's mostly because films in the Netherlands are subtitled, and Holland is a small country surrounded by big neighbours. The same regards Scandinavian countries.
But Germany seems to be quite a different story. It's a country which is big and self-sufficient, German is spoken by some 100 mln. people in Europe as a native language, and movies are dubbed, as far as I know.

I think what the difference between Germans and the Dutch is the wide spread of it's languages. German is spoken is more European nations and quite popular in Northern Europe and most parts of Eastern Europe hence the view 'my neighbours speaks German, why should I learn theirs?' This point of view though quite narrowminded and stupid it does still exist with some Germans but surely will diappear over time. I know this would apply well to some English speakers.

The Dutch are in a very different position where their language influence on Europe and the world is quite small. I think they realised the importance of adapting in a world of globalisation their language alone isn't sufficient so they take on board another major language. I think it's something we Germans should learn from our neighbour.

But is there really a big difference? I mean, don't most people in Germany speak good English nowadays, just like in Holland?
Well, I've been to Germany a couple of times on the excursions but I didn't really communicate with the locals... And at my work I have to make phone calls to Germany sometimes, and yes, usually they speak English. But usually people who I call have jobs requiring regular communication with foreigners (and that's why I call them!).
But what I'm interested in is, if I'm somewhere in Germany, let's say in an average small town, and try to talk to anyone just in the street in English, will people easily respond? In the Netherlands they will, I tried it:)

As an English teacher in Germany, I think I'm quite well-qualified to talk about this! ;) I think the Germans' ability to speak English is often dramatically over-stated. I read in an American (I think, or possibly Canadian) travel guide once that practically all Germans you'll meet in the street will speak fluent English. This is emphatically not true, at least for anyone over 20. While everyone in this area (Düsseldorf) under the age of about 60 has learned English at school, most of them have no reason to ever speak it and practically never hear it (as everything on TV is dubbed into German.). It's possible that people you stop in the street will speak English, but you can't count on it. (The younger the person, the more likely that they can communicate in English).

I agree with what Johannes says - we live quite near the Netherlands and most people I know travel there occasionally. It would never occur to anyone to learn even few words of Dutch, because 'everyone in the Netherlands speaks German' which is a VERY widespread view here (it's not true, especially among younger Dutch people). A few younger people, though, prefer to speak English in the Netherlands - they say you get much friendlier service than if you speak German! :)

Candy, thanks for the answer! So, as far as I understand, all Germans learn English at school and universities but then, as time goes on, many people forget it because they have no chance to practise it?

I think that's about right, Frank. I'm not sure how long it's been compulsory for Germans to learn English - in this area at least, several decades. Of course, in the former East Germany, English wasn't compulsory (Russian was) and in some areas near the border with France, French was the first foreign language for many people (fair enough). But for the majority of Germans, even today, there's little reason to speak or hear English, except for people in 'New Economy' jobs and maybe teenagers. Which is fine, as it means I always have loads of classes to teach! :) Often, my students haven't spoken English for 20 years or even more, and they find it a bit stressful at first to start again - understandably.

Then, I think, in ex-Soviet Union, where I live, the situation is the same as in Germany. Young people in general speak English better than their parents, but still there are many people who are under 30 and are unable to speak English. Films are also dubbed and we don't have many chances to hear spoken English...
But that's not bad, my knowlegde of English will be quite useful in the following decades, too, though I am not a teacher...:)
Some young people here simply don't care about English, while others are interested in learning the language. But when I ask them: "Why do you need English?" they answer something like "I don't know...Because nowadays everyone MUST know it, and ALL people abroad speak it". People regularly hear slogans like "In the modern world it's impossible to live without knowing English" . Those slogans were invented by advertizers to promote English courses, people come across them time after time in the media and believe that it's really so, and think that everyone and everywhere can speak English...except for our country:)))

Almost all of my students are in their 30s and 40s, and they all learned English at school. However, in 95% of cases, their parents didn't. On the other hand, the ones who have children all say that the kids are learning English at school from the age of 8, and far better than they themselves did. So in Germany, English ability is heavily dependent on age - and also, I have to say, on educational level. There are 3 kinds of high school in Germany (Gymnasium, Hauptschule and Realschule), and far more emphasis is put on English in the Gymnasium - the one that leads to university. In a Realschule, they might only do 1 hour of English per week, for only 5 years, whereas in the Gymnasium it's normal to learn English several times a week for 8 or 9 years.

German people seem to prefer DANCE [daens] but FAST [fa:st] when they speak English, that is, they mix Southern British and General American pronunciations. British English is used in schools, but American cinemas and clubs across Germany favor American English.

Klaus I have to agree with you on that. British English is the 'Standard' used in German schools though American English (spoken) is popular due to their influence with media exports especially movies and music.

What Candy mentioned about German High Schools is correct but I want to say this system would mostly apply to middle sized cities to major cities. Towns such as mine with a small popluation wouldn't have the money nor amount of students to sustain all three type of high schools so we sort of have a combination of the three into a type of 'multi system school'. In my school our amount of time on English would vary each week due to no English teachers on site and the availabity of videos. Sometimes we would have up to 2 hours of English classes each week or up to 4 hours which the extra 2 hours would be watching a English movie which was usually after school and optional.

Frank that is quite correct. Once we finish English class we would automatically revert back to German once we leave the class. I have tried to speak English with friends during the break. Most of them would tell me 'Johannes, please stop speaking English! We stopped English classes an hour ago!' or 'Comeon Johannes! We on school holidays! Leave English at school and have fun!'

About East Germans and Russian that was a suprise. Most of my mother's family live in the East and my Grandparents spoke fluent Russian. My consins on the other hand didn't not know a word of Russian but learnt English.

>> I have tried to speak English with friends during the break. Most of them would tell me 'Johannes, please stop speaking English! We stopped English classes an hour ago!' or 'Comeon Johannes! We on school holidays! Leave English at school and have fun!' <<

Ha ha, I get that all the time when I try to speak to other people here in French.

It reminds me of the time when I went into a record shop in Greece. We were talking to each-other in English, but then I started speaking to my dad in French. That was very confusing to the woman who worked there. She asked: 'Nationality? Doish? Belgish?' — I assumed that 'Belgish' was intended to mean Belgian, but I don't know whether by 'Doish' she really meant Deutsch (German) or Dutch.

Just of interest — you say you live in a small town. About how many people live there?

"Gin ye dab wi yer mouse on the airtin til the corrie o this, ye'll can hear a pleyback o the Scots makar Robert Garioch readin Robert Fergusson's 'To the Tron-kirk Bell', gin yer computer and lood-speakers is able for MP3 files: it michtna work weel yit gin ye'r aye dependent on a dial-up modem - gie us a puckle feedback anent this, an we'll aiblins see aboot bringin doun the file size."

Now some other "speaker" of Scots, if you asked them to write the above article in Scots, would spell many, or most, of the words differently. If it's a language, there would be a certain way of spelling the words, but if I went on a Scottish discussion forum right now, gave a Scot the above paragraph written in proper English, and asked them to write it in Scots, they would write it in a completely different way from the paragraph above.

In fact, I will do just that, and then come back here with the Scots translation and compare how similar, or different, they are.

Because they just spell words how they same them in a Scottish accent, and anyone can do that in their accent.

Scots isn't a language because I know for definite that any other Scot would write that passage differently. Some Scots would spell "doun" as "doon", so it can't be a language, unless there are several ways of spelling every word.

LOL HAHA nice story Benjamin it reminds me of a story my mother told me.

She had a friend who travelled to the United Kingdom for a hoilday. She was expected to meet an English friend but he couldn't pick her up from the airport so decided she should check herself in a hotel and call him from there.

As she went to the hotel she stopped in some kind of Tourism office and stared at the brochures. She was approached by a woman and was asked if she needed help. She didn't even understand a single word of English other from the odd 'jes'(yes) and 'no'.

The Tourism worker realising later that she couldn't understand English started to ask her what her Nationality was. French? Dutch? 'Oh jes me Dutch'. Thinking 'Dutch' was English for 'Deutsch' (German). The Tourism worker started to hand her brochures in Dutch and she was even more confused and replied 'Me no nederlands.' The tourism worker said 'Oh they are for free. You can take.' My mother's friend simply walked out of the Tourism Centre and ran for the nearest telephone box and begged for someone to get her.

She later told me when she came back to Germany and mentioned that she suspected the Tourism Centre worker thought she was illiterate (because she couldn't read the Dutch brochures) or something. We had a good few laughs about that and this had became a favourite family story to share with guests.

<Just of interest — you say you live in a small town. About how many people live there?>
Roughly 500 people live in my town.

Okay. I've just asked some Scots that I know on another forum how to translate this -

"If you take a stab with your mouse button on the link to the left of this, you can hear a recording of the Scots makar Robert Garioch reading Robert Fergusson's 'To the Tron-kirk Bell', provided that your computer and loud-speakers can cope with MP3 files: it might not be functioning well as yet if you're still dependent on a dial-up modem - give us some feedback on this point, and we'll maybe think about reducing the file size" - into Scots. When they have done it, I'll post it here and see how different it may be to this -


"Gin ye dab wi yer mouse on the airtin til the corrie o this, ye'll can hear a pleyback o the Scots makar Robert Garioch readin Robert Fergusson's 'To the Tron-kirk Bell', gin yer computer and lood-speakers is able for MP3 files: it michtna work weel yit gin ye'r aye dependent on a dial-up modem - gie us a puckle feedback anent this, an we'll aiblins see aboot bringin doun the file size."