What language is easiest for Spanish Speakers to understand?

Tamu   Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:58 pm GMT
<< I don't care how the Valencians view their language. >>

The thing is, most of the people who insist that Valencian and Catalan are different languages don't even use it naturally in their daily lives.


<< in Valencian Mosatros means We, while in Catalan it is Nosaltres. You (plural) is Vosatros instead of the Catalan Vosaltres >>

In Spanish speaking America, vosotros is not used.
In many countries, tú is not used, or it has another conjugation.

Now tell them they don't speak Spanish. ;-)
Guest   Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:53 pm GMT
There are much more differences, for example este instead of aquest, and so on. Argentinian Spanish is not that different from Spanish, and they don't consider their dialect a separate language, while the Valencians do.
JLK   Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:50 pm GMT
I think Guest is Valencian...
Guest   Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:56 pm GMT
Portunnol is easy for an Spanish speaker.
Tamu   Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:10 am GMT
<< they don't consider their dialect a separate language, while the Valencians do. >>

Yeah, those Valencians who prefer speaking Spanish anyways.

As I said before, the Valencians who actually speak Valencian naturally in their day to day life see Valencian as a language, not more of a political instrument. It happens to be the same language as Catalan. And If they meet someone from Catalonia or les Illes who speaks Catalan to them, they're happy that they can understand each other perfectly using their mother tongue, and don't see the need to switch to Spanish.

A propos Illes, you do realize that some Balearic accent is much further apart than the accent of Dénia is from Lleida?

Could you imagine what people think, after comparing the language of a Balear, someone from Lleida, and someone from Dénia, being told that the Balear and the Lleidan speak the same language yet the Denian not?
Guest   Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:25 am GMT
A Valencian may not understand a person from Majorca that easy. Then Spanish should be introduced to estabish a proper communication.
Guest   Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:36 am GMT
More differences between Valencian and Catalan (some explainations are in Spanish) :

There are many more but these are quite representative. Catalan and Languedocien share less differences and nobody claim that Catalan is the same as Languedocien:


1) Valenciano: Este, esta, estos, estes.
Catalán: Aquest, aquesta, aquests, aquestes.

2) Valenciano: Este - Eixe - Aquell (la misma raiz para la variante femenina y los plurales)
Catalán: Aquest - Aqueix - Aquell (la misma raiz para la variante femenina y los plurales)

3) Valenciano: Aci* - Ahi - Alli. (* "Aqui": dialectismo en el sur de Alicante y norte de Castellón)
Catalán: Aquí - (no tiene) - Allí.

4) Valenciano: Meua, teua, seua.
Catalán: Meva, teva, seva.

5) Valenciano: Mosatros, vosatros, mos, vos.
Catalán: Nosaltres, vosaltres, ens, us.

6) Valenciano: Atre, atra, atres.
Catalán: Altre, altra, altres.

7) Valenciano: Huit, dènèu, xixantahuit, doscentes, milló, quint, sext, vigesim.
Catalán: Vuit, dinòu, seixanta-vuit, dues-centes, milio, cinqué, sisé, vinté.

8) Valenciano: Pos mentres que no prenga molt de pa en chocolate (uso de "-a", uso de "en").
Catalán: Doncs mentre que no prengui gaire pa amb xocolata (uso "-i", uso de "amb").

9) Valenciano: Hui, els bous estan en Muchamel (uso del verbo "estar", uso de "en").
Catalán: Avui, els toros son a Mutxamel (uso del verbo "ser", uso de "a").

10) Valenciano: Els autors han segut uns chics pròu jovens (uso del verbo "ser" formas pasivas).
Catalán: Els autors han estat uns nois bastant joves (uso del verbo "estar" formas pasivas).

11) Valenciano: Davant de mí està el sapo ("de + mi/tu/ell/mosatros/vosatros/ells).
Catalán: Davant meu es el gripau ("meu/teu/seu/nostre/vostre/llur).

12) Valenciano: Deu ser vèrt, com l'hèrba, no roig (terminación "-t").
Catalán: Ha de esser verd, com la gespa, no pas vermell (terminación "-d", "pas" en negaciones).

13) Valenciano: Ademes, lo pijor es que yo pense aixina (uso de "lo", uso de "-e").
Catalán: A mes a mes, el pitjor es que jo penso aixi (uso de "el", uso de "-o").

14) Valenciano: Dos homens menuts y dos chiques boniques (uso de "menut/chicotet").
Catalán: Dos homes petits i dues noias macas (uso de "petit" diminutivo, "dues" femenino).

15) Valenciano: Se diu molt pronte com parar un servici roín (uso de "se" impersonal).
Catalán: Hom diu força aviat com aturar un servei dolent (uso de "hom" impersonal).

16) Valenciano: Articul, vehicul, vincul (uso de "-cul". Salvo "muscle", "mascle").
Catalán: Article, vehicle, vincle (uso de "-cle").

17) Valenciano: Formalisar, realisat, analisà (uso de "-isar", "-isat", "-isà").
Catalán: Formalitzar, realitzat, analitzada (uso de "-itzar", "-itzat", "-itzada").

18) Valenciano: Chufa, chutar, che (uso de "ch-").
Catalán: Xufla, xutar, xe (uso de "x-").

19) Valenciano: Mege, plaja, coche (uso de "g", "j", "ch").
Catalán: Metge, platja, cotxe (uso de "tg", "tj", "tx").

20) Valenciano: Novela, ilicità, colege (uso de "l").
Catalán: Novel.la, il.licità, col.legi (uso de "l.l").

21) Valenciano: Pronte, conte, assunt (uso de "n").
Catalán: Prompte, compte, assumpte (uso de "mp").

22) Valenciano: Pobrea, rarea, durea (uso de "-ea").
Catalán: Pobresa, raresa, duresa (uso de "-esa").

23) Valenciano: Cremà, amparàes, llauraor, ballaora, melaet, picaeta (sin "d" intervocalica).
Catalán: Cremada, emparades, llaurador, balladora, meladet, picadeta (con "d" intervocalica).

24) Valenciano: Regateig, braceig (uso de "-eig").
Catalán: Regatejo, bracejo (uso de "-jo").

25) Valenciano: Pròlec, epilec, filòlec, psicòlec, catalec (uso de "-lec").
Catalán: Pròleg, epileg, filòleg, psicòleg, cataleg (uso de "-leg").

26) Valenciano: Noroest, surest, surafrica.
Catalán: Nord-oest, sud-est, sud-africa.

27) Valenciano: Carlos y Ampar estan ahi menjant polp (sin artículo ante nombre propio).
Catalán: El Carles i la Empar son allí menjant pop (uso de artículo ante nombre propio).

28) Valenciano: Eixir, agarrar, parar, vòre, tindre, vindre, assentarse, naixer, traure...
Catalán: Sortir, agafar, aturar, veure, tenir, venir, seure, neixer, treure...

29) Valenciano: Insistixc, seguixc, sapien, creguen, haja, feres, donares, referix...
Catalán: Insisteixo, segueixo, sapiguen, creguin, hagi, fessis, donessis, refereix...

30) Valenciano: Elig (uso de "-ig" sonido "ch" castellana).
Catalán: Elx (uso de "-x" sonido "ch" francesa).
A Valencian from Dénia   Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:51 am GMT
I'm a Valencian from Dénia (south of Valencia) and I speak in Catalan (also called Valencian in my region) with Catalans and people from Majorca (Mallorca). By the way, my dialect is closer to what is spoken in the north-west of Catalonia than the dialect spoken in the city of Valencia itself. The catalan of Eivissa (Ibiza) is also closer to my Catalan, in many ways than the catalan spoken in Valencia.

The differences between the different Catalan dialects are of a similar nature to the differences between English dialects. As a matter of fact, people from Northern England and the Southern United States might have spoken difficulties to understand each, other which are overcome after a short while or period and once your ear gets used to the sound. Very much the same happens with us. If we speak the Standard language, differences are much lower.

The written language is also the same (with small differences as happen between Commonwealth and US English) and both the Institut d'Estudis Catalans and the Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua agree that they speak the same language.

Children is school also learn the same language and mediaeval and contemporary authors are from all over the region.

People who try to make Valencian a different language have a political agenda, which has little to do with the language itself.

I speak Valencian as my main language with my parents, all my family (yound and old) and with most of my friends and I usually use Castilian Spanish, when I have to speak with monolingual Castilian Spaniards, especially out of my region.

I always speak my Catalan or Valencian when I travel to Catalonia or Mallorca and Catalan TV is widely seen in the region of Valencia.

Many of the words which our biased friends states as "Catalan" are very much alive in different parts of the Valencian region such as: aquest, sortir, tenir, venir (south of Valencia), insisteixo (north of Valencia), El Carles i la Maria (south of Valencia), pobresa, duresa (south and north of Valencia), petit (all the south of Valencia from Alcoi to Guardamar and in all generations).

As a matter of fact everything is found in the region of Valencia and they just think Valencian is the dialect spoken around the city of Valencia (where Spanish is much more widely heard in the city and where more Spanish words have got into the language).

Please excuse any typos or errors in English but facts are facts and I invite you to check them in the Region of Valencia itself, a beautiful area with ignorant people with political agendas like anywhere else in the world.
Guest   Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:02 am GMT
You are not a Valencian, you are from Catalonia. Valencian is a different language.
Valencian from Dénia   Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:23 pm GMT
T'agrade o no t'agrade sóc valencià i el valencià no és una llengua diferent al català. És la mateixa llengua coneguda, internacionalment pels intel·lectuals, amb el nom de "llengua catalana".

Whether you like it or not I'm Valencian and Valencian is not a different language than Catalan. It's the same language, internationally known by scholars, as "Catalan language".

I, obviously, am Valencian and as I said the Valencian Academy of the Language (Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua) states that Valencian and Catalan are the same language and the language taught in Valencian universities is "Filologia Catalana" since there is no "Filologia Valenciana" whether you like it or not.

Som molts els valencians que reconeixem la unitat de la llengua. Que no t'agrade ho entenc però no has rebatut ni cap ni un dels meus arguments.

We are many, the Valencians, who acknowledge the unity of the language. I can understand you not liking it but you even be able to refute a single argument.

La ignorància és molt atrevida, xiquet o xiqueta!

Ignorance is quite daring, little boy or little girl!
Tamu   Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:34 pm GMT
I was in València.
It is obvious that of the people who insist on saying that Valencian and Catalan are different languages, most prefer Spanish anyway in their daily life. For most of them Valencian is some kind of a political agenda instead of something a language is supposed to be: medium of communication.

Valencian from Dénia, your English is great!
Valencian from Dénia   Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:48 pm GMT
I've been studying English for quite a few years because there are many British people in this area. I also practice my English with other Northern Europeans (Dutch, Scandinavian, etc.)

I've still got a long way to go but I find English to be a beautiful language and I enjoy practicing it. I was quite astonished to find these "Valencian" people saying that Valencian and Catalan are different languages. This is not what we are taught in Valencian schools where all teachers tell us that Valencian and Catalan are the same language. I did all my primary and secondary studies, in the 80s and 90s, in Valencian or Catalan in Dénia so I should know!

Boats to the Balearic Islands leave from Dénia (the closest point to the Balearic Islands from the Spanish mainland). Dénia is 100 kms. south of Valencia and Valencian is the most widely spoken language in the district. I have met many people from the Balearic Islands since I was a child and they do have a different accent and some different words but the language is the same I speak at home with my Valencian parents from Dénia.

Because I've heard them (the Balearics) since I was a child I'm used to the accent and there is no problem of understanding them at all. I have also studies Balearic, Catalonian and Valencian authors and they all write in the same language and spelling with slight differences.

The language of the Balearic Islands is also Catalan. I have also visited Barcelona with my parents and on my own (it's a beautiful city) and Catalan is widely spoken in Barcelona and we always speak the way we speak at home. Very often they ask us if we are from Western Catalonia (Lleida or Lérida in Spanish) because they speak almost the same way we speak in Dénia. In Andorra, where Catalan is the only official language, they speak almost the same way as in Dénia since they have the same accent than us.

In Valencia they have a "more Spanish accent" even when they speak Valencian and you will hear much more Spanish (Castilian) in Valencia than in Dénia or Barcelona.

I have been asked, in Valencia, if I am Catalan because the accent of the Marina Alta District (Dénia) is very pure and, therefore, very Catalan to the ears of Valencia city speakers. I have told them I was from Dénia. Many people from Valencia or the surrounding area only speak Castilian Spanish even when they visit Valencian or Catalan-speaking towns.

These are facts and I do not invent anything at all.

I prefer to speak about "more serious" issues in English including world cultures but I don't like people with a strong political agenda. The list of differences is so funny it makes me almost laugh since that isn't true in all the Valencian region.
Guest   Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:16 pm GMT
AVL , despite its name, is a politic instrument supported by the Catalan Government, its directives do not represent the real usage of the Valencian language sopken by Valencians. They on the other hand want to modify the Valencian language in order to resemble more and more to Catalan, discouraging the own features of Valencian For example many characteristics Valencian has which diverge from Catalan, are not recognised in the grammar created by AVL. To understand the pancatalanistic agenda of AVL and their few supporters in Valencia , which are not the majority, I could cite the case of the preposition "en" ( in English "with") . AVL says that proper Valencian uses "amb" instead of "en" , while it is alien to most of the Valencias who speak Valencian. They say (AVL) that amb must be used, because in Catalan it is normal. I could cite more examples, which illustrate the intentions of AVL and the supporters of this assimilation of Valencian to the Catalan language. These disgusting people not only say that Valencian and Catalan are the same, they even want to tell the Valencians how they should speak. So don't pretend to show AVL as a neutral Institution just because they say that Valencian and Catalan are the same language, they have their own agenda and they are not neutral at all about this subject.
Tamu   Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:48 pm GMT
@Valencian from Dénia

Your English is wonderful! Brav@!

Thank you for the nice insight into the situation there in València, Catalunya, and les Illes.

Too bad there are people who are so bitter towards Catalan, and so refuse to see the linguistic facts just as the way they are.
Through such people it's been more tenacious for Valencian to develop into a normalized language. And ironically those people are the ones who are more comfortable speaking Spanish. I guess it's some kind of an inferiority complex? I've no idea. Perhaps you know better.

You don't need to spend too much of your time on "unserious" matter as this, but I have to say that what you wrote so far has been very helpful. And for that I thank you.

Take care!


Tamu
Guest   Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:25 pm GMT
Going back to the topic, I think that for an Spanish speaker the easiest languages to understand are:

In writen form: Portugese
In spoken form: Italian and Brazilian Portuguese