Cuban dialect; similar to Castilian or Latin American

Isis   Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:19 am GMT
My father is Cuban and goes back and forth as to whether I should take Spanish (Spain) or Spanish (Latin America) course from Rosetta Stone. Cuban dialect is like Castilian which is a dialect from Spain right? So would I take that course instead of Latin America which is like Mexican dialect I assume ...
Tiffany   Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:39 am GMT
It is?

I grew up in Miami and went to an International high school. The kids from Spain did not sound like the students who spoke Cuban Spanish. The interdental is a big giveaway, but there were other differences too.

At the same time, there are many dialects with Latin America as well - you can't group them, they don't all sound alike. I have no idea which dialect Rosetta stone bases their Latin American Spanish on. I didn't even know they had two versions of Spanish available. Makes sense though.

Are you planning to live in Spain or in a Latin American country? Obviously, your best bet would be to base it on that.
JGreco   Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:42 am GMT
My best advice to you is to find a language program that brings in elements of many different types of Latin Castilian dialects. Not all Latin accents are like Mexican accents. There is a lot of variability in the accents. Cuban is more like Caribbean Spanish the dialect spoken in Cuba, Puerto Rico, The Dominican Republic, Panama, and coastal areas of Colombia and Venezuela. In my opinion learning just Spain spanish would probably not be good because first of all you are not in Europe and second Latin American Spanish is used and spoken in the Western Hemisphere. I can understand the validity of learning Eu. Spanish if you were in the Eastern hemisphere but not in the west. Also, Castilian spanish has many words that are not used or seem as funny if you used them in Latin American varieties. If the Rosetta is teaching the standard variety of Latin American spanish they would be teaching an accent more common to inland Colombia around Bogota which is thought to be the most neutral accent in Latin America (highlands spanish).
Luis Zalot   Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:21 am GMT
Isis, here's a comparison of "Castilian, caribbean & Standard Spanish."

http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/spanish/frameset.html

The carribean spanish don't "pronounce" the "s" in the antepenultimate and in the middle they only soften it. Also, in some cases or all; some words even sound "portuguese" like in a sense. For example;

Lado is pronounced as "lao"

Pues is pronounced as "pue"

Venado is pronounced as "venao"

etc.

Castilian Spanish and Cuban spanish HAVE some similarities in "vulgar" talk. Example; Cono is used in both languages.

Castilian Spanish and Mexican spanish HAVE similarities in "sibilant" s.
the long hiss like...ssssss. aswell as "Pronunciation" of all the words, though some regions of Mexico (the east), respectively: pronounces words as "lao" IN SOME MEXICAN DIALECTS OF MEXICO, respectively.
This is course is because of Caribbean influence on the east coast lines, or the fact the east section of MEXICO has a lot of african decent, as well as spanish/italian & indigenous. And not to mentioned "Chipas" uses "vos" instead of using "tu" etc.
Jordi   Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:43 am GMT
One has to consider that Cuba (and Puerto Rico) remained Spanish until 1898 and that important Spanish families still controlled part of the economy until the 1950s. It is a well known fact that Fidel Castro is of European Spanish (Galician parents). Nowadays, some of the main hotel chains in Cuba are also Spanish and Spanish tourists flood into Cuba every year since it is a major favourite resort. Many Cubans have settled in Spain since being sons and grand sons of Spaniards they are immediately eligible for citizenship. That also happens with other South American countries (specially Argentina, Uruguay, Colombia and Chile).

The other Central and South American countries became independent in the 1820s although the European Spanish influence is also quite important throughout the 19th and 20th century (the Central and South American elite has often chosen Spanish universities for a year o two abroad, European Spanish and American Spanish professors are welcome on both sides of the pond and Spanish migrants have never ceased with quite heavy quotas at given times: for example the end of the Spanish Civil War brought thousands of Spaniards to Mexico, Argentina, Colombia or Chile.Thousands of Spanish migrants have settled on the other side of the Atlantic until the 1960s although Spain is now a receiver of immigrants from all over the world (almost 4 million new citizens in the past decade.)

In the case of Cuba the more recent European Spanish influence can easily be traced. Cuba was considered "la perla de la Corona" ("the jewel of the Crown") and the loss of Cuba became a real "national" drama giving birth to the generation known in Spain as "la generación del 98".

Regarding Spanish, it only takes a few weeks to adapt to the different varieties as so many Spaniards and Central and South Americans will tell you. The most important thing, the pronunciation of vowels, is extremely simple and the slight consonantic differences do not hinder at all understanding. Differences in vocabulary are not as great as it would seem and are easily learnt as is the case between Commowealth and American English.
Mikel   Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:59 am GMT
Mexico was "new spain" and your point is?

So that would mean MORE spaniards went there in early times and thru-out history (until 1820's) though as you pointed out "Spanish refugees" fled spain (when Franco's government was imposed.) and WENT to Mexico, etc. Some Mexican Dialects sound very Spanish in fact, Also they perserved as "Luis Zalot" mentioned. The Sibilant "s" is perserved in "Jalisco" and in other states, other terms. etc.

ARCHAIC words like;

fierro,truje,nenguno,mesmo,aguero,ansina & ETC.
and a newly added word pos (alternative)....which means "pues" I've heard in Jalisco's pueblos...using "facer" rendering "hacer." Which "Jalisco" is MOSTLY of Spanish/French decent.

------>>>>>

Demographics of Mexico

Demographics of Mexico, Data of FAO, year 2005; number of inhabitants in thousandsMexico, with its estimated population of 106 million in 2005, is the most populous Spanish-speaking country in the world, and the second-most populous country in Latin America after Portuguese-speaking Brazil. The population of Mexico is ethnically and culturally diverse.


Ethnic groups

Mestizos
The largest ethnic group is the mestizos, constituting approximately 60% of Mexico's population. Mestizos are people of mixed Native American and European heritage. Although a Mestizo is relatively 67% european and 43% Indigenous.


Native Americans
Unmixed Native American peoples make up the second-largest group; official statistics put them at 10% of the population, but many believe the figure to be closer to 30%. The reason for the discrepancy is the federal government's policy of using spoken language rather than race as the basis of classification. But in Mexico, as in the United States and other countries in the Americas, most Native Americans no longer speak their native tongues. In Mexico this is partly a result of the government's own policy of cultural and linguistic assimilation, which has resulted in the "Hispanization" of many of the Native American populations.

Thus, many mestizos are in fact assimilated Native Americans, inflating the mestizo population estimate from 60% to as high as 80%. Meanwhile, the number of Native Americans continues to decline as more are assimilated and as the linguistic basis of classification remains the same.

In the states of Chiapas and Oaxaca, and in the interior of the Yucatán Peninsula, the majority of the population is indigenous. Large indigenous minorities, including the Nahua, Tarasca, and Mixtec are also present in the central regions of Mexico. In northern Mexico the indigenous are a small minority and include the Tarahumara of Chihuahua and the Yaqui and Seri of Sonora.


Europeans
About 9% of the population, mostly in Mexico City, Jalisco, Sonora, Coahuila, Tamaulipas, Nuevo León and Chihuahua and other large metropolitan areas, is of unmixed white European descent. In addition to the Spanish colonists, French settlers arrived during the Mexican Empire (19th century) and Italians during the government of Porfirio Díaz, Americans, Yugoslavs and Germans arrived in Mexico after World War I. During the 1930s many Spanish refugees fleeing the Spanish Civil War arrived, mostly in Mexico City. Polish and Russian (Guadalupe, Baja California) refugees, Ashkenazic Jews among them, also settled during the war. The Jewish immigrants joined the Sephardic community that had lived in Mexico since the Spanish Inquisition.

Also of note are colonies of Mormons, Mennonites and Molokans, mainly in the northern states of Chihuahua and Durango. British immigrants also settled, mainly in mining areas, as well as French settlers in Santa Rosalía, Baja California Sur. Some believe that the British first brought Protestantism into Mexico. Greek immigration has been important as well, especially in the state of Sinaloa and its capital Culiacán.


Middle Easterners & Asians
Mexicans of Lebanese and Turkish descent are present in huge numbers, some Chinese and Filipinos arrived from the Philippines in colonial times. During the period of Asian Exclusion from the United States in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, many Chinese, Japanese, and Korean immigrants settled in northern and western Mexico, especially Baja California. Mexicali is known for its relatively prominent concentration of people of Chinese descent. There are also Jewish Mexicans of Lebanese, Turkish or other Mediterranean descent, with common ancestral roots in Spain, and speak Ladino, which is closely related to Spanish.


Africans
Since colonial times, when thousands of Africans were brought as slaves, Mexico has had a significant number of people of black-African descent. While today Afro-Mexicans of relatively unmixed black-African ancestry, as well as Zambos and mulattos, represent about 0.5% of the population.

Most of Mexico's blacks live in the states of Veracruz, Guerrero, and Yucatán. Major populations also exist in Mexico's larger cities, such as Mexico City, Guadalajara, Monterrey, and Tijuana. In addition to those present since the colonial era, many African-Americans seeking to escape racial discrimination in the United States during the early 20th century emigrated to Mexico.


Other Latin Americans
Mexico is also the destination for many other Latin American groups: mostly Argentines, but also Brazilians, Cubans, Colombians, and Venezuelans. The PRI governments in power for most of the 20th century had a policy of granting asylum to fellow Latin Americans fleeing political persecution in their home countries.
Guest   Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:50 am GMT
If I'm not mistaken, Cuban Spanish is the evolution of Andalucian and Canary Island Castilian mixed with the indigeneous Taino language (Arawakan) and assorted African vernaculars spoken by the African slaves.
Aldo   Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:38 pm GMT
There are not such Spanish "dialects" in Latin America, except if there is some kind of mix of languages somewhere but in a local level. All is the same language but with different particular ways to pronounce some words and with lots of localisms in every country and the respective accent.

<<Lado is pronounced as "lao" >>
<<Pues is pronounced as "pue" >>
<<Venado is pronounced as "venao" >>

There is only a way to pronounce such words: lado, pues, venado.

All these variations are vices of language which vary from country to country and they must be avoided. If there's a doubt it's better to look for the pronunciation in a dictionary.

There are other variations in Latin America, f.e. it happens with letters like "S" when the sound is replaced by sound of letter "J", or sound of letter "R" is replaced by sound of "L".

Pues = puej [then] (Panama, Nicaragua, others)
Señor = señol [sir] (Cuba, Pto.Rico)
Puerta = puelta [door] (Cuba, Pto.Rico)
New York = New Yol [even in English] (Cuba, Pto.Rico)
Nazca = najca [born] (Argentina, Chile, others)

In Spain I've noted the change of sound of "X" by sound of "S"

Examen = esamen

There are omitions of letter "D" or "S" mainly if they are in the last syllable.

Venado = venao [deer] (Could be heard in some countries even in Spain, depends on persons)
Entonces = entonce [then] (Chile, Venezuela and others)
Usted = uste [you] (Some countries)

There are other variations which I call laziness of language, the words are shortened.

Para = pa' [for] (some countries, depends on persons)
Entonces = 'toes [then] (Costa Rica)

The rest are accents and localisms.

A curious detail is that very often these imperfections and accent are not shown by professional singers so sometimes it's hard to know their nationality while they sing but are quite clear in f.e. an interview.

Personally I think that Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Costa Rica and Colombia are the countries with less vices of language at least among the educated population. Generally the pronunciation tends to get worst in the rural areas.
JGreco   Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:17 pm GMT
Sometimes these how should I say people of European Spanish decent (obviously such as ALDO) who has nothing to do but bash at language variation like as if he was superior to all other people since who he speaks European Spanish. It's people like him that make true to the stereotype every Latin American knows "THAT ALL SPANIARDS ARE ELITTIST AND RACIST AND THE RIGHT WAY TO TALK IS THERE WAY." At least their mainland portuguese counterparts defends and excepts variety in their language (even if the Brazilians still have their nationalistic pride) and don't dismissl their non-standard varieties such as Cabo Verdeano as "uneducated speech that should never be used" as you seem to point out in the varieties of Spanish. I guess with your opinions I see that Spanish Imperialism is alive and well with the attitudes of many spaniards huh?
Aldo   Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:15 am GMT
JGreco, it's funny how you supposed that I'm a Spaniar, well I'm not. I'm American in the correct sense or Latin American if you prefer so I'm not 'bashing' anything.

All this matter of 'dialects' the only thing that it causes is confusion among people who want to learn Spanish and the way some countries pronounce some words is not a good example to imitate or to improve the dominion of the language that they are learning, that's what I meant when I said that if there's a doubt it's better look for the correct pronunciation. I think it's good to know the differences among Hispanic countries but as a general knowledge nothing more.
JGreco   Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:47 am GMT
Sorry your message seemed was very blount in the way I interepreted it. I apologize for my remarks if that is what you didn't mean.
JGreco   Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:48 am GMT
But personally I think the variation is a great thing and its something to celebrate and not detest.
Aldo   Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:07 am GMT
<But personally I think the variation is a great thing and its something to celebrate and not detest. >

No, I don't detest any variation. It's nice and funny to guess with lots of precision where a foreigner comes from just hearing his accent and in Latin America we have about fifteen, some very similar and some very different among them.

Spanish is the same language in every country of Latin America and accent, included the way some countries pronounce some letters, and the Americanisms don't transform it into a dialect, that's my point.

No matter where you take Spanish classes, you will learn the same language. I think that for a non-native Spanish speaker to hear that there are a "Mexican dialect" or an "Argentinian dialect" would give him the impression that there are lots of different Spanish versions and that could scare him and confuse him thinking that the learning will be an endless process.

But I insist, it's not a good idea to use such variations in the normal conversation since it could result in uncomfortable situations since it would be very funny to hear a non-native Spanish speaker talking with a Cuban accent for example.
Larissa   Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:16 pm GMT
JGreco Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:48 am GMT
But personally I think the variation is a great thing and its something to celebrate and not detest.

I don't think the variation is a great thing, why do we say AmE/BrE, Castilian Spanish/Latin American Spanish, Continental French/Canadian French, Continental Portuguese/Brazialian Portuguese? All of these distinctions getting on my nerves!
JR   Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:25 pm GMT
They're not really that different. Spain Spanish and Latin American Spanish are not that different. On alot of DVDs (Usually the Disney DVDs) you have the option of playing the movie in Latin American Spanish or European Spanish. The two are not very different. One of the only differences I noticed between the European and Latin American versions of The Lion King in Spanish was the pronnounciation of what would be the letter "ç" or "Z". Like "Cabeza"(head) and "Desgracia"(disgrace). Pronnounced des-gra-sia in Latin America, and des-gra-thia in Europe. Ca-be-sa in Latin America, Ca-be-tha in Europe. There's no real right or wrong, but in Portuguese and French, as well as English, the C in "Desgracia" is pronnounced like an "S".

The most obvious difference between spoken Latin American Spanish (except for Argentina) and spoken European spanish is the form of "Vos". Instead of "Tu corres"(You run) it would be "Vos corréis"(Thou Runeth?), but sometimes in Latin America, Vos seems to be substituted as another form of "Usted", as in "Vos corre"(Thou Runs) instead of "Vos corréis"(Thou Runeth?)