In a majority of places of China, people entirely can talk in Mandarin everywhere, even in some dialect regions such as Shanghai(Wunese), Xiamen(Minnanese), Shenzhen(Cantonese), even in Taiwan, Mandarin is so widely spoken there, instead of Minnanese(Taiwanese). But only in HongKong, Macao, Guangzhou, as well as in the vicinity of them, people tend to speak only Cantonese everywhere. If I don't need to go to HongKong, Macao, Guangzhou and nearby cities, certainly it's really not necessary for me to learn Cantonese as an important skill, even if I go there to travel around, I still don't need to learn Cantonese just for my short journey in HongKong, so Cantonese dialect is only dispensable language skill for the most of people who're living outside Cantonese-spoken small world. In brief, Mandarin is accordingly the most useful one.
Will Spanish and Chinese overcome English?
The most difficult Chinese dialects, in the rough, are as follows:
1, Minnanese: Taiwan people call it Taiwanese, and Mainland people call it Minnanese. It's considered as a most difficult dialect just as if it's another new language.
2, Wunese: In Shanghai, Suzhou, and some nearby cities(Jiangsu Province), people speak Northern Wunese. And in Wenzhou and some nearby cities(Zhejiang Province), people speak Southern Wunese there.
3, Hakka: Spoken in Guangdong Province(May county and vicinity) and also spoken in some places of Taiwan(Four county and etc.).
4, Cantonese: The most influential Chinese dialect, spoken in Guangdong Province, Hongkong, Macau, and many places abroad. Fairly difficult.
1, Minnanese: Taiwan people call it Taiwanese, and Mainland people call it Minnanese. It's considered as a most difficult dialect just as if it's another new language.
2, Wunese: In Shanghai, Suzhou, and some nearby cities(Jiangsu Province), people speak Northern Wunese. And in Wenzhou and some nearby cities(Zhejiang Province), people speak Southern Wunese there.
3, Hakka: Spoken in Guangdong Province(May county and vicinity) and also spoken in some places of Taiwan(Four county and etc.).
4, Cantonese: The most influential Chinese dialect, spoken in Guangdong Province, Hongkong, Macau, and many places abroad. Fairly difficult.
I can speak Teochew (a Min-Nan variety), Hokkien (the Xiamen standard), Hainanese as well as Cantonese. This is on top of Mandarin.
Now, mind you. I cannot obviously be a Teochew, a Hokkien, a Hainanese or a Cantonese all at the same go. But I still learn them in spite of the fact that Cantonese is as different as chalk and cheese to Teochew, as far as semantics is concerned.
I think it's absolutely petty that Mandarin speakers do not make an effort to integrate when they choose to settle down in the south. By behaving as imperialistic overlords, they would outstay their welcome soon enough.
Mr Chinese, you've not visited the rural regions. This is surprising when one pauses to consider that China is still a pastoral country. You'd give an arm and a leg to find a Mandarin speaker in any rural area of Guangdong province.
PS: It is appalling when Chinese travellers in HK do not even make the mininum effort to pick up the local lingo. At least President Jiang Zemin made a cursory effort to greet the territory ("tai kah ho") when he visited it in the capacity as then then President of the Republic.
A food for thought here. How can one consider himself to be a fully-fledged Chinese national when he can only speak a measley Chinese tongue? If you watch old documentaries or video clips of early parliamentary sessions, you'd realise that many provincial delegates often rose to speak in their own tongues and not Mandarin. When I was in Zhongshan, I wandered into the Sun Yat Sen museum and saw a video clip of Madam Chiang addressing the delegates in Hakka.
It'd be unthinkable today.
Now, mind you. I cannot obviously be a Teochew, a Hokkien, a Hainanese or a Cantonese all at the same go. But I still learn them in spite of the fact that Cantonese is as different as chalk and cheese to Teochew, as far as semantics is concerned.
I think it's absolutely petty that Mandarin speakers do not make an effort to integrate when they choose to settle down in the south. By behaving as imperialistic overlords, they would outstay their welcome soon enough.
Mr Chinese, you've not visited the rural regions. This is surprising when one pauses to consider that China is still a pastoral country. You'd give an arm and a leg to find a Mandarin speaker in any rural area of Guangdong province.
PS: It is appalling when Chinese travellers in HK do not even make the mininum effort to pick up the local lingo. At least President Jiang Zemin made a cursory effort to greet the territory ("tai kah ho") when he visited it in the capacity as then then President of the Republic.
A food for thought here. How can one consider himself to be a fully-fledged Chinese national when he can only speak a measley Chinese tongue? If you watch old documentaries or video clips of early parliamentary sessions, you'd realise that many provincial delegates often rose to speak in their own tongues and not Mandarin. When I was in Zhongshan, I wandered into the Sun Yat Sen museum and saw a video clip of Madam Chiang addressing the delegates in Hakka.
It'd be unthinkable today.
I can speak Teochew (a Min-Nan variety), Hokkien (the Xiamen standard), Hainanese as well as Cantonese. This is on top of Mandarin.
Now, mind you. I cannot obviously be a Teochew, a Hokkien, a Hainanese or a Cantonese all at the same go. But I still learn them in spite of the fact that Cantonese is as different as chalk and cheese to Teochew, as far as semantics is concerned.
I think it's absolutely petty that Mandarin speakers do not make an effort to integrate when they choose to settle down in the south. By behaving as imperialistic overlords, they would outstay their welcome soon enough.
Mr Chinese, you've not visited the rural regions. This is surprising when one pauses to consider that China is still a pastoral country. You'd give an arm and a leg to find a Mandarin speaker in any rural area of Guangdong province.
PS: It is appalling when Chinese travellers in HK do not even make the mininum effort to pick up the local lingo. At least President Jiang Zemin made a cursory effort to greet the territory ("tai kah ho") when he visited it in the capacity as then then President of the Republic.
A food for thought here. How can one consider himself to be a fully-fledged Chinese national when he can only speak a measley Chinese tongue? If you watch old documentaries or video clips of early parliamentary sessions, you'd realise that many provincial delegates often rose to speak in their own tongues and not Mandarin. When I was in Zhongshan, I wandered into the Sun Yat Sen museum and saw a video clip of Madam Chiang addressing the delegates in Hakka.
It'd be unthinkable today.
Now, mind you. I cannot obviously be a Teochew, a Hokkien, a Hainanese or a Cantonese all at the same go. But I still learn them in spite of the fact that Cantonese is as different as chalk and cheese to Teochew, as far as semantics is concerned.
I think it's absolutely petty that Mandarin speakers do not make an effort to integrate when they choose to settle down in the south. By behaving as imperialistic overlords, they would outstay their welcome soon enough.
Mr Chinese, you've not visited the rural regions. This is surprising when one pauses to consider that China is still a pastoral country. You'd give an arm and a leg to find a Mandarin speaker in any rural area of Guangdong province.
PS: It is appalling when Chinese travellers in HK do not even make the mininum effort to pick up the local lingo. At least President Jiang Zemin made a cursory effort to greet the territory ("tai kah ho") when he visited it in the capacity as then then President of the Republic.
A food for thought here. How can one consider himself to be a fully-fledged Chinese national when he can only speak a measley Chinese tongue? If you watch old documentaries or video clips of early parliamentary sessions, you'd realise that many provincial delegates often rose to speak in their own tongues and not Mandarin. When I was in Zhongshan, I wandered into the Sun Yat Sen museum and saw a video clip of Madam Chiang addressing the delegates in Hakka.
It'd be unthinkable today.
Ben, what you've said is exactly why mandarin is introduced as the official language of china, because not everyone has the time and talent to learn other regions' dialects.
To learn another dialect is great, but it should not be considered petty if one doesn't do that. the same situation exists in any other country.
To learn another dialect is great, but it should not be considered petty if one doesn't do that. the same situation exists in any other country.
RE: Ben
I suppose you can speak fluent ChaoShan(潮汕) and MinNan(廈台) dialects, as well as good Cantonese, and actually I like MinNanese(廈台) very much too, and I even prefer MinNanese to Cantonese for most purposes, but I don't know much about ChaoShan(潮汕) dialect as yet. If I could got an opportunity to learn a Chinese dialect in the future, I would rather choose MinNanese(廈台) to study it hard, because I really like it. As for Hakka(客家梅縣) dialect, I found it quite similar to MinNanese(廈台). The dialect, that I don't like it so much, might be Cantonese, I'm afraid so. In fact I know Cantonese keeps a lot of phenomena that derived from Classical Chinese, such as Vocabularies, Pronunciations, as well as some Grammar, Cantonese is considered as an important language abroad, even more useful than MinNanese(廈台), ChaoShanese(潮汕) and Hakka in some respects, but Cantonese sounds really less euphonious than the other dialects, although it's so widely spoken as a powerful language and almost it runs neck and neck with Mandarin in the world. Thanks!
I suppose you can speak fluent ChaoShan(潮汕) and MinNan(廈台) dialects, as well as good Cantonese, and actually I like MinNanese(廈台) very much too, and I even prefer MinNanese to Cantonese for most purposes, but I don't know much about ChaoShan(潮汕) dialect as yet. If I could got an opportunity to learn a Chinese dialect in the future, I would rather choose MinNanese(廈台) to study it hard, because I really like it. As for Hakka(客家梅縣) dialect, I found it quite similar to MinNanese(廈台). The dialect, that I don't like it so much, might be Cantonese, I'm afraid so. In fact I know Cantonese keeps a lot of phenomena that derived from Classical Chinese, such as Vocabularies, Pronunciations, as well as some Grammar, Cantonese is considered as an important language abroad, even more useful than MinNanese(廈台), ChaoShanese(潮汕) and Hakka in some respects, but Cantonese sounds really less euphonious than the other dialects, although it's so widely spoken as a powerful language and almost it runs neck and neck with Mandarin in the world. Thanks!
I must firstly state that I am unequivocally for the promotion of Mandarin as the language of administration. However, I do not think it is a big ask for regional tongues to become established in their native regions in a manner that would be quite akin to the linguistic policy in Spain.
Lu, you did shoot down an argument suggesting that Cantonese and Mandarin are as different as chalk and cheese. Since they are not very different, it would not be too hard for you to learn how to speak it.
Chinese, I'd not say that Hakka sounds like a Min-Nan substratum. To my untrained ears, it sounds closer to Cantonese. Indeed, Hakka speakers in Malaysia are usually one of the best Cantonese speakers. If you were to listen to a Hakka news bulletin, you'd have an odd impression that the language is an unwanted offspring of both Mandarin and Cantonese.
As for the Teochew (or the Chaoshan) dialect, let me give you a leg up in understanding the tongue. We'll start off with a question: What's the native tongue of the richest Chinese man, Li Kah Shing?
Answer: Teochew.
Lu, you did shoot down an argument suggesting that Cantonese and Mandarin are as different as chalk and cheese. Since they are not very different, it would not be too hard for you to learn how to speak it.
Chinese, I'd not say that Hakka sounds like a Min-Nan substratum. To my untrained ears, it sounds closer to Cantonese. Indeed, Hakka speakers in Malaysia are usually one of the best Cantonese speakers. If you were to listen to a Hakka news bulletin, you'd have an odd impression that the language is an unwanted offspring of both Mandarin and Cantonese.
As for the Teochew (or the Chaoshan) dialect, let me give you a leg up in understanding the tongue. We'll start off with a question: What's the native tongue of the richest Chinese man, Li Kah Shing?
Answer: Teochew.
Cantonese is the language of Bruce Lee and you are to respect this.
If Portuguese and English people could learn Cantonese, I don't know why Mandarin people couldn't. I call it laziness.
If Portuguese and English people could learn Cantonese, I don't know why Mandarin people couldn't. I call it laziness.
Ben, as far as I know, neither Teochew nor Hakka has been popularized in Guangdong and Hongkong, and according to an investigation, it was reported that Cantonese people don't like the pronunciations of Teochew and Hakka. And for the most part, the native speakers of Teochew and Hakka can almost speak fluent Cantonese too. So I guess that Teochow and Hakka dialects seem to have a strong declining tendency gradually. And by contraries Cantonese will have an absolutely advantage over Teochew and Hakka in the near future. Just as the same as in Taiwan and Xiamen, MinNanese(TaiWanese) is being replacing by Mandarin step by step everywhere. In fact, I wish MinNanese dialect (Xiamen & Taiwan)could always exist in China. Finally thank you for your patient replies. Good Luck!!!
Llorenna
Many of our Chinese have been studying English, Japanese, German, French, Korean, Spanish and Italian. Are we really lazy men in your mind?
What an absurd theoretics you said! How many languages can you speak?
Many of our Chinese have been studying English, Japanese, German, French, Korean, Spanish and Italian. Are we really lazy men in your mind?
What an absurd theoretics you said! How many languages can you speak?
Lol. I am really enjoying the direction which the argument has evolved. Firstly, Chinese, I think you and I have plenty in common. Despite my often hectoring rhetoric, I am not a strident linguistic nationalist. I love Mandarin and I speak it as often as I can. I accept Mandarin as part of a dual identity of a Southern Chinese where he has equal facility in both his native tongue as well as Mandarin.
I am not from China although I have visited my ancestral village a couple of times. Mostly, these are just family excursions where I tagged along with ancient relatives but here are my observations of the south. Cantonese is certainly the predominant tongue in Guangdong - my chauffeur was a Guangxi native but he picked up Cantonese within a year. Otherwise, he explained, he'd be denied a fully-fledged role in participating in local community life.
However, civil servants from the North usually cannot be bothered to learn any word of the local tongue. I can always remember the scene where the customs officier between Macao and Zhuhai rebuked a poor elderly gentleman dressed in typical peasant clothes for addressing him in Cantonese. I mean, what can the poor bloke do? He obviously did not go to school; I discerned that his spoken Cantonese was already not of the prestige variety; this is Cantonese-speaking country.
That was an incident which coloured my perception of Mandarin-speaking Chinese in general. It'd not be a totally inaccurate generalisation when I say that a non-Mandarin speaking Chinese is more flexible when it comes to learning another dialect, e.g. a Teochew would more readily learn Cantonese than someone from Beijing, for example.
In the Teochew-speaking area of China, you'd be surprised at how strong the language continues to be. Admittedly, there has been an influx of 'strangers' from other parts of China with an infuriating reluctance to learn the local speech. But it's alright: we use it as a tool to differentiate between 'us' and 'them'. In Shanghai, it is well-known that non-Shanghainese Chinese are regularly fleeced by the itinerant hawkers. We Teochews, however, aren't as entrepreunerial as that.
I cannot comment about Hakka except to say that my motley crew of Hakka friends all cannot speak their tongue beyond 'sik foon' or to eat rice. If they do speak a Chinese language, it'd be Mandarin and/or Cantonese.
Mandarin-speaking people aren't lazy. I find plenty of parallels between them and English speakers in general. They assert the primacy of their language and make it the onus of others to learn their speech in order to communicate with them. Nonetheless, Mandarin speakers have proven that they can speak a southern Chinese tongue if the occasion arises. There are plenty of Hong Kong celebrities with Mandarin-speaking roots and who have successfully carved out an acting career for themselves in the Cantonese language film industry in HK. I can name Faye Wong, Jet Li and Leon Lai as Northerners who are able to speak Cantonese, albeit with a slight hint of an accent in the first two.
But no matter. Even if the Northern (i.e. Mandarin) tongue has triumphed over the South, Southern cuisine has made a more indelible mark on the world than the North.
Of course, it is a bit pedantic to bicker over something as pointless as this. It'd be better if we stop. But where's the fun in that?
I am not from China although I have visited my ancestral village a couple of times. Mostly, these are just family excursions where I tagged along with ancient relatives but here are my observations of the south. Cantonese is certainly the predominant tongue in Guangdong - my chauffeur was a Guangxi native but he picked up Cantonese within a year. Otherwise, he explained, he'd be denied a fully-fledged role in participating in local community life.
However, civil servants from the North usually cannot be bothered to learn any word of the local tongue. I can always remember the scene where the customs officier between Macao and Zhuhai rebuked a poor elderly gentleman dressed in typical peasant clothes for addressing him in Cantonese. I mean, what can the poor bloke do? He obviously did not go to school; I discerned that his spoken Cantonese was already not of the prestige variety; this is Cantonese-speaking country.
That was an incident which coloured my perception of Mandarin-speaking Chinese in general. It'd not be a totally inaccurate generalisation when I say that a non-Mandarin speaking Chinese is more flexible when it comes to learning another dialect, e.g. a Teochew would more readily learn Cantonese than someone from Beijing, for example.
In the Teochew-speaking area of China, you'd be surprised at how strong the language continues to be. Admittedly, there has been an influx of 'strangers' from other parts of China with an infuriating reluctance to learn the local speech. But it's alright: we use it as a tool to differentiate between 'us' and 'them'. In Shanghai, it is well-known that non-Shanghainese Chinese are regularly fleeced by the itinerant hawkers. We Teochews, however, aren't as entrepreunerial as that.
I cannot comment about Hakka except to say that my motley crew of Hakka friends all cannot speak their tongue beyond 'sik foon' or to eat rice. If they do speak a Chinese language, it'd be Mandarin and/or Cantonese.
Mandarin-speaking people aren't lazy. I find plenty of parallels between them and English speakers in general. They assert the primacy of their language and make it the onus of others to learn their speech in order to communicate with them. Nonetheless, Mandarin speakers have proven that they can speak a southern Chinese tongue if the occasion arises. There are plenty of Hong Kong celebrities with Mandarin-speaking roots and who have successfully carved out an acting career for themselves in the Cantonese language film industry in HK. I can name Faye Wong, Jet Li and Leon Lai as Northerners who are able to speak Cantonese, albeit with a slight hint of an accent in the first two.
But no matter. Even if the Northern (i.e. Mandarin) tongue has triumphed over the South, Southern cuisine has made a more indelible mark on the world than the North.
Of course, it is a bit pedantic to bicker over something as pointless as this. It'd be better if we stop. But where's the fun in that?
Ben
In fact, we're not bickering over any topics! We're just communicating...
I love Teochew cuisine so much, and I tasted a lot in Swatow(汕頭) and Amoy(廈門) last year. Just like you said, if the occasion arises, I will try to learn to speak Cantonese(Hongkong) and Minnanese(Amoy & Taiwan) in the future, and make great efforts on them just as I studied the other foreign languages. Thanks! BYE...Hope you always happy and healthy!
In fact, we're not bickering over any topics! We're just communicating...
I love Teochew cuisine so much, and I tasted a lot in Swatow(汕頭) and Amoy(廈門) last year. Just like you said, if the occasion arises, I will try to learn to speak Cantonese(Hongkong) and Minnanese(Amoy & Taiwan) in the future, and make great efforts on them just as I studied the other foreign languages. Thanks! BYE...Hope you always happy and healthy!
"If Portuguese and English people could learn Cantonese, I don't know why Mandarin people couldn't. I call it laziness. "
hehe, that's because they have to live there
it's not laziness, but unnecessity. what's the point of learning it if you will never have a chance to use it.
hehe, that's because they have to live there
it's not laziness, but unnecessity. what's the point of learning it if you will never have a chance to use it.
Well, that settles it. All our petty strives or communication as you diplomatically put it, are mere storms in a teacup. We're very much in agreement as far as language policies are concerned. I just believe in the old adage that when in Rome, do as the Romans do.