How to make pronunciation descriptions for learners.

/fredrik from no:rwei/   Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:57 am GMT
/ai egri: ðæt IPA i:z ðe best wei ov renderiñ saunds in wraitiñ, böt X-Sampa straiks mi: æ:z e bit kömbersom æltörnetiv. ðe best soulü:∫ñ wüd probebli: bi: tü: lük tü oðer læñwid∫ez we:r ði: orθogrefi: i:z mo:r sütebel fo:r di:scbraibiñ prounaunzi:ei∫en./

/hel, ai mist æ ∫wa: simbel wen wraitiñ ðis!/
Jim C, York   Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:16 am GMT
Yeah, I just about understood that. At first I thought you were writing in Finnish! They have such a weird language, I saw a Finnish dubbed episode of Asterix, my Danish mate and I laughed so much!No offence to the Fins mind! ;)
Fredrik from Norway   Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:16 am GMT
Rudolph:
Don't be stupid, IPA isn't something invented on Antimoon. I used it (in a simplified form) when learning English in elementary school way back in the 90s!

As you can see from my above post I think the best solution for making a simple phonetical system for Internet use would be to use letter forms from many different languages, as many languages have developed quite nice symbols for sounds that would have to be rendered with several letters in other languages (like the highly inaccurate English).
Kirk   Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:37 am GMT
IPA (as I pronounce things):

[ˈfɹɛːdɹɪk jæ aɪ əˈgɹi ðəɾ aɪpʰiˈe ɪːz ˈpɹɛfɚəbɫ̩ tʰɯ ɛkˈsæmpə bʌt̚ nɑɾ ˈɛvɹiˌwʌn kʰn̩ ɹiːɾ ɪɾ ɑn ðɛɹ kʰəmˈpʰjɯɾɚz].[ˈaɪpʰiˈe ɪːz fɑɹ mɔɹ ɪsˈθɛɾɪkli ˈpʰliːziŋ bʌɾ ɛkˈsæmpə meks fəˈnɛɾɪk tɹænˈskɹɪpʃn̩ ɪkˈsɛsɪbɫ̩ də ˈɪniˌwʌn]

X-SAMPA (as I pronounce things):

["fr\E:dr\Ik j{ aI @"gr\i D@4 aIp_hi"e I:z "pr\Ef@`@b5= t_hM Ek"s{mp@ bVt_} nA4 "Evr\i%wVn k_hn= r\i:4 I4 An DEr\ k_h@m"p_hjM4@`z].["aIp_hi"e I:z fAr\ mOr\ Is"TE4Ikli "p_hli:ziN bV4 Ek"s{mp@ meks f@"nE4Ik tr\{n"skr\IpSn= Ik"sEsIb5= d@ "Ini%wVn]

Spelling:

Fredrik, yeah I agree that IPA is preferable to X-SAMPA but not everyone can read it on their computers. IPA is far more esthetically pleasing but X-SAMPA makes phonetic transcription accessible to anyone.
Jim C, York   Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:51 am GMT
Not knowing anything about this yet, i cant comment on which is best, Though that IPA didnt work on my computer. As far as Fredrik's aproach its good, but some letters could cause problems, Ø for example I cant pronounce for the life of me.
Fredrik from Norway   Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:58 am GMT
Jim:
ø, or the more common ö, is found in English:
"church" = /t∫ö:t∫/ (bad transcription of the ch sound)
and "mud" = /möd/
Kirk   Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:05 am GMT
<<Jim:
ø, or the more common ö, is found in English:
"church" = /t∫ö:t∫/ (bad transcription of the ch sound)
and "mud" = /möd/>>

What dialect are you talking about? In RP "church" has /ɜː/ (/3:/ in X-SAMPA) and /ʌ/ (/V/ in X-SAMPA). English is not usually known for having rounded front vowels, altho a few dialects have them. If most English speakers already had /ø/ (/2/ in X-SAMPA) or /œ/ (/9/ in X-SAMPA) then they wouldn't initially find words like "böse" in German, "oeuf" in French or "födde" in Swedish difficult to pronounce correctly, as is generally the case.
Fredrik from Norway   Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:06 am GMT
Rudolph:
My comments:
"a" for 'eh-ah as in /cat, map, van.../
This could be rendered as /æ/, /ae/ or /ä/, with /æ:/ if long

"a" for 'eh-ee as in /cake (k_k), pain (p_n), day (d_).../
This could be rendered as /ei/ (diphtong)

"a" for ah as in /car, father, glass, dance, bath.../
This could be rendered as /a:/ (long a)

"a" for aw as in /law (l_), caught (k_t), thought (th_t).../
This could be rendered as /o:/ (long o)

"e" for eh as in /bed, bread (br_d), sweat (sw_t), health (h_lth).../
This could be rendered as /e/ (short e)

"e" for ee as in /bean (b_n), bee, piece (p_s), chief (ch_f), field (f_ld).../
This could be rendered as /i:/ (long i)

"i" for 'ee-eh as in /bin, fin, win, busy (b_z_), building (b_ld_ng).../
This could be rendered as /i/ (short i)

"i" for 'ah-ee as in /wine (w_n), light (l_t), lie (l_), sky (sk_).../ "
This could be rendered as /ai/ (diphtong)
Kirk   Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:06 am GMT
That first sentence should read "...and 'mud' has /ʌ/ (/V/ in X-SAMPA)."
Jim C, York   Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:11 am GMT
My mates name is SØREN, Danish. I pronounce his name differently every time i see him. I can only just say it right when i do an impression of him. But i think that pisses him off, quite rightly. Very difficult sound. Isn't Ø the joining of two old Danish letters? Would that be a source of my problem, that in fact its two conjoined sounds? Or was the old Danish two letters for one sound? I dunno.
Fredrik from Norway   Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:15 am GMT
Kirk:
You are absolutely correct. They are not 100 % similar, I was just trying to shed some light on the sound represented by the mysterious ø/ö for Jim...

The interesting question is of course wether its defendable to use ø/ö in a transcription of English. In reality this would be no problem, as we have IPA instead, but on the Internet? Is X-SAMPA really userfriendly enough for people like Rudolph?
Fredrik from Norway   Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:21 am GMT
LOL, Søren, the most ur-Danish name ever...

Kirk:
Here's a challenge for you: How can we make Jim pronounce his friend's name approximately correctly?
Fredrik from Norway   Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:24 am GMT
My advice would be to say church or mud, but put your tongue down towards your lower teeth and make slightly kissing lips.
Jim C, York   Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:31 am GMT
Sort of working, I normaly think I'm saying it right but then he says i havn't. I usualy just call him Klit, his middle name. I havn't seen him in a while, I'll have to give him a ring and try out your Ø tip.
Fredrik from Norway   Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:31 am GMT
Jim:
ø did not exist in Ur-Nordic, but like all Umlauts originated (by complex vowel processes) during the great language shifts of the period 500-700, which transformed Ur-nordic into Old Norse. In old Norse it was a normal vowel, written ö.