After extensive travelling in Germany I have found that a lot of Germans, especially young and educated ones and especially in the North, speak Hochdeutsch as their "native dialect".
A Question to all: [...]
In my opinion, Low German dialects are in fact heavily High German.Nevertheless the statement that nearly all Germans speak a dialect rather than the standard language with an accent isn't true.
Jav is absolutely correct about Germans and dialects. You don't often hear real dialect in Germany and then mostly from older farmers and working-class people, especially in Saxony, Rhineland or the South.
>> Low German dialects are in fact heavily High German <<
No, Low German dialects are actually completely different from High German, although it's true that the purest High German is spoken in some areas in the North.
>> After extensive travelling in Germany...<<
Okay, you are from Norway. Nobody in Germany would expect you to understand their dialect. In that case, Germans switch to the standard form (if they are able to;). I am German myself and I only use the standard form in classes at university, when going to a doctor, formal conversations or when talking to somebody with less knowledge of the german language. The place where I study are people from all over Germany and they mostly use their dialect (of course only in private conversations), and a few speak a kind of mixture between their dialect and the standard form (which sounds like High German to somebody from a different country).
What I wanted to stress is that there are RELATIVELY few Germans without any dialect, and although there are some occasions where Germans with a dialect use High German, most of them favor their own dialect in every other situation.
No, Low German dialects are actually completely different from High German, although it's true that the purest High German is spoken in some areas in the North.
>> After extensive travelling in Germany...<<
Okay, you are from Norway. Nobody in Germany would expect you to understand their dialect. In that case, Germans switch to the standard form (if they are able to;). I am German myself and I only use the standard form in classes at university, when going to a doctor, formal conversations or when talking to somebody with less knowledge of the german language. The place where I study are people from all over Germany and they mostly use their dialect (of course only in private conversations), and a few speak a kind of mixture between their dialect and the standard form (which sounds like High German to somebody from a different country).
What I wanted to stress is that there are RELATIVELY few Germans without any dialect, and although there are some occasions where Germans with a dialect use High German, most of them favor their own dialect in every other situation.
Believe me Kuni, I know a lot about Low German dialects, also called low saxon.
There are 3 groups withing the West Germanic languages, Anglo-Frisian, Low German and High German.The latter have a more direct common ancestor, "German", not to be mistaken with modern High German as spoken in Germany today.
Simply put:
Low German languages such as Dutch and Afrikaans are closer to this "German" than high German variants like Standard German or Yiddish.
There was however, in the past a language called 'Low German' language, this wasn't the ancestor of modern low german languages, but just a language of it own. But because of the influence of High German in those areas, the language disappeared.And today only exists in the form of dialects of High German with a large influx of Low Saxon/Low German words.
There are 3 groups withing the West Germanic languages, Anglo-Frisian, Low German and High German.The latter have a more direct common ancestor, "German", not to be mistaken with modern High German as spoken in Germany today.
Simply put:
Low German languages such as Dutch and Afrikaans are closer to this "German" than high German variants like Standard German or Yiddish.
There was however, in the past a language called 'Low German' language, this wasn't the ancestor of modern low german languages, but just a language of it own. But because of the influence of High German in those areas, the language disappeared.And today only exists in the form of dialects of High German with a large influx of Low Saxon/Low German words.
Dear Jav, I really appreciate your interest in Low German (or maybe you meant Low Germanic) dialects, but I have to say that some of your comments aren't quite true.
>>There are 3 groups withing the West Germanic languages, Anglo-Frisian, Low German and High German.<<
It is actually Anglo-Frisian, Low Germanic and High Germanic - that's a big difference!
>>The latter have a more direct common ancestor, "German", not to be mistaken with modern High German as spoken in Germany today.<<
What do you mean with "German" as their ancestor? All of those three have a common ancestor that is called Old Saxon and Low German is a kind of predecessor of High German. The difference between Low German and High German is due to the consonant shift in the High German varieties.
>>Low German languages such as Dutch and Afrikaans are closer to this "German" than high German variants like Standard German or Yiddish.<<
Don't mix things up! Dutch and Afrikaans are Low GermanIC languages, together with Low German, which is also a subdivision of this branch.
>>There was however, in the past a language called 'Low German' language, this wasn't the ancestor of modern low german languages, but just a language of it own. <<
Häh?!
But because of the influence of High German in those areas, the language disappeared.<<
I think I learned something completely new!!
Just some quotes from wikipedia:
"Low German is a name for the regional language varieties of the Low Germanic languages (still!) spoken mainly in northern Germany, and eastern Netherlands.
Here are all the Low German dialects existing in Northern Germany:
West Low German:
Northern Low Saxon, Westphalian language, Eastphalian language
East Low German:
Mecklenburgisch-Pommersch, Brandenburgisch, East Pomeranian, Low Prussian, Plautdietsch (Mennonite Low German, used also in many other countries)"
I've been several times to Northern Germany myself and there are also a lot of people from North Germany where I live (we call them Fischköpp;). Most of them speak in the standard German form, since their dialect is different from ours, although some of them only speak High German. But there is no disappearance of the Low German dialect and your comment that Low German dialects are heavily High German, just because some people from that area speak it, is not true!
Regards.
>>There are 3 groups withing the West Germanic languages, Anglo-Frisian, Low German and High German.<<
It is actually Anglo-Frisian, Low Germanic and High Germanic - that's a big difference!
>>The latter have a more direct common ancestor, "German", not to be mistaken with modern High German as spoken in Germany today.<<
What do you mean with "German" as their ancestor? All of those three have a common ancestor that is called Old Saxon and Low German is a kind of predecessor of High German. The difference between Low German and High German is due to the consonant shift in the High German varieties.
>>Low German languages such as Dutch and Afrikaans are closer to this "German" than high German variants like Standard German or Yiddish.<<
Don't mix things up! Dutch and Afrikaans are Low GermanIC languages, together with Low German, which is also a subdivision of this branch.
>>There was however, in the past a language called 'Low German' language, this wasn't the ancestor of modern low german languages, but just a language of it own. <<
Häh?!
But because of the influence of High German in those areas, the language disappeared.<<
I think I learned something completely new!!
Just some quotes from wikipedia:
"Low German is a name for the regional language varieties of the Low Germanic languages (still!) spoken mainly in northern Germany, and eastern Netherlands.
Here are all the Low German dialects existing in Northern Germany:
West Low German:
Northern Low Saxon, Westphalian language, Eastphalian language
East Low German:
Mecklenburgisch-Pommersch, Brandenburgisch, East Pomeranian, Low Prussian, Plautdietsch (Mennonite Low German, used also in many other countries)"
I've been several times to Northern Germany myself and there are also a lot of people from North Germany where I live (we call them Fischköpp;). Most of them speak in the standard German form, since their dialect is different from ours, although some of them only speak High German. But there is no disappearance of the Low German dialect and your comment that Low German dialects are heavily High German, just because some people from that area speak it, is not true!
Regards.
>>It is actually Anglo-Frisian, Low Germanic and High Germanic - that's a big difference! <<
No, in fact that's the same. ;-)
>>Don't mix things up! Dutch and Afrikaans are Low GermanIC languages, together with Low German, which is also a subdivision of this branch.<<
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language#German_and_Germanic
Read that piece of wikipedia.Low German is therefore often call low saxon.
No, in fact that's the same. ;-)
>>Don't mix things up! Dutch and Afrikaans are Low GermanIC languages, together with Low German, which is also a subdivision of this branch.<<
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language#German_and_Germanic
Read that piece of wikipedia.Low German is therefore often call low saxon.
Hi Jav,
I didn't deny that Low German is also called Low Saxon. In fact, it is also called Plattdeutsch, Plattdüütsch or Old Saxon.
But note what is written on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Germanic_languages :
"The term Low German is sometimes used instead of Low Germanic languages. However, this leads to the confusion between that group of languages and one of its constituents, Low German."
The second sentence makes clear that it has to be distinguished between those terms, because Low German is, together with Low Franconian (that is Dutch, Limburgish and Afrikaans), a Low Germanic dialect! There is also a table on the right side where those subdivisions are listed.
Okay, it's late now and I think I'm going to bed :)
See you
I didn't deny that Low German is also called Low Saxon. In fact, it is also called Plattdeutsch, Plattdüütsch or Old Saxon.
But note what is written on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Germanic_languages :
"The term Low German is sometimes used instead of Low Germanic languages. However, this leads to the confusion between that group of languages and one of its constituents, Low German."
The second sentence makes clear that it has to be distinguished between those terms, because Low German is, together with Low Franconian (that is Dutch, Limburgish and Afrikaans), a Low Germanic dialect! There is also a table on the right side where those subdivisions are listed.
Okay, it's late now and I think I'm going to bed :)
See you
Kuni:
Nice to have a native German explaining these things to us! I am very well aware that as a Norwegian I normally don't get on the "inside" so that I can hear Germans chatting away in their dialects. But my impression from Freiburg im Breisgau, where I am currently studying, is that practically all students use Hochdeutsch in all situations. In Freiburg, that is; I suspect a lot of them speak dialects when at home in their villages.
Where do you study, where there is so much dialect use among students?
Nice to have a native German explaining these things to us! I am very well aware that as a Norwegian I normally don't get on the "inside" so that I can hear Germans chatting away in their dialects. But my impression from Freiburg im Breisgau, where I am currently studying, is that practically all students use Hochdeutsch in all situations. In Freiburg, that is; I suspect a lot of them speak dialects when at home in their villages.
Where do you study, where there is so much dialect use among students?
Hi Fredrik.
Lucky you, you live in the sunniest part of Germany! The place where I study is a town called Landau, about two hours away from Freiburg. But I also used to be in Saarbrücken. In Saarbrücken, a lot more students use the Standard form than in Landau, since there are more people from abroad (esp. France). But in Landau, many people are actually too lazy to switch to the Standard variant- i.e. in private conversations. Of course, there are also some students using the standard everywhere and in all situations (also at home), but I don’t want to be confined to the situation at universities. When I walk through the town and talk to the locals on the street, in shops or elsewhere, they usually use their dialect. But I have to admit that things are sometimes a bit different in larger cities, like Freiburg or Saarbrücken.
Btw, my dialect also includes grammatically incorrect expressions like „Ich hann kald!“ instead of „Mir ist kalt.“ or „Ich hann gedenkt“ (-> "Ich habe gedacht") funny, isn't it?!
So long!
Lucky you, you live in the sunniest part of Germany! The place where I study is a town called Landau, about two hours away from Freiburg. But I also used to be in Saarbrücken. In Saarbrücken, a lot more students use the Standard form than in Landau, since there are more people from abroad (esp. France). But in Landau, many people are actually too lazy to switch to the Standard variant- i.e. in private conversations. Of course, there are also some students using the standard everywhere and in all situations (also at home), but I don’t want to be confined to the situation at universities. When I walk through the town and talk to the locals on the street, in shops or elsewhere, they usually use their dialect. But I have to admit that things are sometimes a bit different in larger cities, like Freiburg or Saarbrücken.
Btw, my dialect also includes grammatically incorrect expressions like „Ich hann kald!“ instead of „Mir ist kalt.“ or „Ich hann gedenkt“ (-> "Ich habe gedacht") funny, isn't it?!
So long!
Ach, Landau in der Pfalz! Ich habe schon gehört, dass die Pfälzer gerne Mundart sprechen. Schließlich war Bundeskanzler Kohls Deutsch auch ganz pfälzisch gefärbt, nicht?
„Ich hann gedenkt“ klingt gut für mich, weil es auf Norwegisch
"jeg har tenkt" heißt!
"jeg har tenkt" heißt!
Dein Deutsch ist ziemlich gut!! Was ich noch klarstellen wollte ist, dass ich nicht aus der Pfalz komme (wie du vielleicht vermutest), sondern gebürtige Saarländerin bin. Das ist ganz wichtig zu wissen, denn es liegt in der saarländischen Natur, die Pfälzer zu verarschen!
Übrigens:
"Was ist der Unterschied zwischen einem Kuhschwanz und einem Pfälzer-Schlips? Der Kuhschwanz verdeckt das Arschloch ganz...“ :)
Übrigens:
"Was ist der Unterschied zwischen einem Kuhschwanz und einem Pfälzer-Schlips? Der Kuhschwanz verdeckt das Arschloch ganz...“ :)
Hi Kuni,
>>The second sentence makes clear that it has to be distinguished between those terms, because Low German is, together with Low Franconian (that is Dutch, Limburgish and Afrikaans), a Low Germanic dialect! There is also a table on the right side where those subdivisions are listed.<<
Even furthern on it says;
"Germanic" is used, to help non-linguists grasp this tricky concept—not that the term is false in any sense though. High and Low German languages are the only Germanic languages able to be identified as such."
There is, like I said before, no distinction.It's just an aid.
Ps. Limburgish is not a language, but a Dutch dialect.
>>The second sentence makes clear that it has to be distinguished between those terms, because Low German is, together with Low Franconian (that is Dutch, Limburgish and Afrikaans), a Low Germanic dialect! There is also a table on the right side where those subdivisions are listed.<<
Even furthern on it says;
"Germanic" is used, to help non-linguists grasp this tricky concept—not that the term is false in any sense though. High and Low German languages are the only Germanic languages able to be identified as such."
There is, like I said before, no distinction.It's just an aid.
Ps. Limburgish is not a language, but a Dutch dialect.