Portuguese, the most successfull language in the world!

Gringo   Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:04 am GMT
««Is colonisation still taught as being a good thing in Portuguese schools? I mean, this is the 21st century right? »»

Sander
Can you explain what is wrong with colonisation? There were many places the Portuguese colonised that were deserted and were populated by Portuguese. In the past, what is now Portugal was also colonised by Iberians, Celts, Romans, Germanics, and Arabs.

It can be a good thing as well as it can be a bad thing, it depends at what aspects you are analysing.

We have all been conquered, one time or another in the past, and did our share of conquering too.

If all that colonisation did not take place the world today would be a different place. Brazil would not exist nor samba, the United States would not exist, not even the Netherlands would exist.
Sander   Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:32 am GMT
Believe me Gringo, when someone braggs about the colonial history of his country in the 21st century then he or she is a nationalist.

I would have thought the schools of developed countries had switched sides by now.

Because I wonder Gringo, when the Romans conquered (wouldn't say colonize) Portugal ... did they mass murder the Iberians? Use them as Slaves? Replace them with Africans?
Gringo   Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:22 pm GMT
««Believe me Gringo, when someone braggs about the colonial history of his country in the 21st century then he or she is a nationalist.
I would have thought the schools of developed countries had switched sides by now.»»

You learn to respect the sacrifice of people that gave their life for their country. For so many to leave was never to come back again. If it had not been the Portuguese to colonise it would have been some one else.

Why schools should change sides? Are you ashamed of your own history Sander? The Dutch were also colonisers and many times fought with the Portuguese for the control of colonies.

Of course, today no one thinks that it is a good thing to go and conquer another country to make it a colony, no one would think about doing it today. But it was necessary in the past.

Maybe the world would be hundred years behind if that did not happen. Many people would still be starving in Europe with not enough food to eat.


««Because I wonder Gringo, when the Romans conquered (wouldn't say colonize) Portugal ... did they mass murder the Iberians? Use them as Slaves? Replace them with Africans?»»

Yes, the Romans mass murdered the Celtiberians from the region of Portugal (and Portugal did not exist at that time)

And yes, thousands were sold to slavery an thousand were crucified and thousands had their hands cut off and were left to die. It was a war there is nothing good in wars.

The Celtiberians were not replaced by Africans, no, there were still many left.The Roman admired the warrior skills of the local people. Why do you ask this? Maybe you can explain where you want to get at?
Sander   Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:49 pm GMT
>>Maybe the world would be hundred years behind if that did not happen. Many people would still be starving in Europe with not enough food to eat.<<

hahaha, believe me Gringo, Europeans never colonized other places because of a shortage of food. Diamonds, Gold, Silver, Spices, National pride that's why.

But let's turn your statement around:

If Europeans hadn't colonized Africa, people there now wouldn't be starving.How's that?

>>Why schools should change sides? Are you ashamed of your own history Sander? The Dutch were also colonisers and many times fought with the Portuguese for the control of colonies.
<<

Why should school changes sides? Because they are expected (at least here they are) to provide an accurate image.What if schools in Germany still taught nazi ideology?

Colonizers like the many of them were mass murderers and driven by a desire for power and money.

>>You learn to respect the sacrifice of people that gave their life for their country. <<

Tell, me how does one sacrifice himself for the homeland by separating Africans from their families and then selling them?

>>Yes, the Romans mass murdered the Celtiberians from the region of Portugal (and Portugal did not exist at that time) <<

Why should I believe that? Have you got sources or references?
Kelly   Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:05 pm GMT
Here in Brazil, colonization is being taught as a bad thing. First of all, Brazil was a colony made for exploration in 1st place (unlike USA / Australia that were colonies for inhabitation). Portugal was atrocious ruler and therefore it is hated in Brazil. 500 years of Brazil discovery day (come on, Columbus discovered Americas; why should Brazil have separate discovery date?! at all) was practically ignored in Brazil. Speech of Portuguese president Sampaio was laughed at since no Brazilian understood his heavily accented dialect.
Gringo   Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:15 pm GMT
Sander

>>Maybe the world would be hundred years behind if that did not happen. Many people would still be starving in Europe with not enough food to eat.<<

««hahaha, believe me Gringo, Europeans never colonized other places because of a shortage of food. Diamonds, Gold, Silver, Spices, National pride that's why.
But let's turn your statement around:
If Europeans hadn't colonized Africa, people there now wouldn't be starving.How's that?»»

Yes there was shortage of food. Many people left their land to look for a better life.
I think the Africans would be starving the same way, yes. They were not starving while colonized were they? Today they are starving because of the greediness of their own rulers and of other foreign interests.

««Why should school changes sides? Because they are expected (at least here they are) to provide an accurate image. What if schools in Germany still taught nazi ideology?

Colonizers like the many of them were mass murderers and driven by a desire for power and money. »»

There you have an ideology. Can you say in what nazi ideology compares with the ideology of the colonisers? The Portuguese intermarried with Indians and Africans in the colonies.
I do not say some were not driven by the desire of money and power. That is still what makes the world go round. But mass murderers? Maybe you are talking about your own history, not all histories are the same. There were excesses yes but there were many native people that would have been wiped out by rival tribes if it had not been for the colonisers. If there was mass murderer there would be no mestizos.



««Tell, me how does one sacrifice himself for the homeland by separating Africans from their families and then selling them?»»

The Africans were slave traders. In case you do not know they sold their own people. The African Slave Kingdoms, have you never heard of them? Local and international slave trades in Africa existed long before the 15th-century origins of the European slave trade.

Portugal was the first European country to stop slavery in the main land and I think the Netherlands were the last (right?).

It was Europe who in the end,( irony heh!), put a stop to slavery in Africa.

««>>Yes, the Romans mass murdered the Celtiberians from the region of Portugal (and Portugal did not exist at that time) <<

Why should I believe that? Have you got sources or references?»»

If you ever read ancient authors like Appian , Livy… Cato de censor etc, (every Roman History Lover knows them).
This is one source, Appian, there are many other ancient authors:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0230&query=chapter%3D%2318&layout=&loc=Hisp.%2011.61

Also later on many other revolts took place. Have you ever heard of Quinto Sertorio the Roman Marian that became the líder of the Lusitani and put up a fight against Sula and Rome? Marian were those who fought for Gaius Marius de uncle of Julius Caesar.
Gringo   Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:20 pm GMT
Kelly
««Here in Brazil, colonization is being taught as a bad thing. First of all, Brazil was a colony made for exploration in 1st place (unlike USA / Australia that were colonies for inhabitation). Portugal was atrocious ruler and therefore it is hated in Brazil. 500 years of Brazil discovery day (come on, Columbus discovered Americas; why should Brazil have separate discovery date?! at all) was practically ignored in Brazil. Speech of Portuguese president Sampaio was laughed at since no Brazilian understood his heavily accented dialect. »»

If it is a bad thing maybe Brazilians should give the land back to the native people, pack their things and go back to their original home land.

If Portugal is hated in Brazil why every Brazilian was cheering for Portugal and saying they were Portuguese for whole four days?

Silly you!
Sander   Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:58 pm GMT
>> Today they are starving because of the greediness of their own rulers and of other foreign interests. <<

It is essential to know the past to understand today. By looking at that statement ... it is clear you don't know the past and don't understand today.

>>If you ever read ancient authors like Appian , Livy… Cato de censor etc, (every Roman History Lover knows them).
This is one source, Appian, there are many other ancient authors: <<

Appian gives a battle report, not a report of the murder of citizens and ordinary people.

>> Portugal was the first European country to stop slavery in the main land and I think the Netherlands were the last (right?). <<

Yes, the Netherlands were the last, but how does this make Portugal less wrong?

>> It was Europe who in the end,( irony heh!), put a stop to slavery in Africa. <<

And this is an excuse? Nazi Germany started WWII in Europe by declaring war on Poland, it ended WWII in Europe by surrendering to the allies.
Gringo   Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:25 pm GMT
Sander
««>> Today they are starving because of the greediness of their own rulers and of other foreign interests. <<

It is essential to know the past to understand today. By looking at that statement ... it is clear you don't know the past and don't understand today.»»

Do not make confusion between the colonial past of your people and that of others.
The colonised countries I am referring, in case you do not know anything about their history, got them selves in civil war for several years supported by major world nations. From rich colonies they became impoverished by decades of war. Your statement makes no sense at all.


««Appian gives a battle report, not a report of the murder of citizens and ordinary people.»«


Wrong! He gives a report of the depopulation of Lusitania and the murdering of unarmed citizens after negotiation of peace.

“”Then he invaded Lusitania and gradually depopulated it.””
“Then he came to the first division and told them as friends to lay down their arms.”[Appian]

Men, women, children they all fought. They laid down their arms.
If it was civil population why was Galba sent to trial? I told you read Cato de Censor, Livy, Valeri Maximi, Pauli Orosii those are some references.

“9.6.2 Ser. quoque Galba summae perfidiae: trium enim Lusitaniae civitatium conuocato populo tamquam de conmodis eius acturus viii, in quibus flos iuventutis consistebat, electa et armis exuta partim trucidavit, partim vendidit. quo facinore maximam cladem barbarorum magnitudine criminis antecessit.”
[Valeri Maximi-Factorum et Dictorum Memorabilium-Liber IX]

They were the “flos iuventutis” the youth, they were not soldiers yet , several authors refer to this massacre and the selling of the people.

[The Caucæi had also been massacred, before the Lusitani, after the truces were made]

««Yes, the Netherlands were the last, but how does this make Portugal less wrong?»

Who is talking about being more or less wrong? But if you want to go that way…
One hundred years more of slavery is absolutely the same thing mainly when all other nations had already put a stop to it? It is less wrong to the people that were freed one hundred years earlier, or more, than to the others still enslaved.


««>> It was Europe who in the end,( irony heh!), put a stop to slavery in Africa. <<
And this is an excuse? Nazi Germany started WWII in Europe by declaring war on Poland, it ended WWII in Europe by surrendering to the allies.»»

Again you make no sense at all. Unless you are referring to something about the colonisation made by your people you want to share with us.
What is right or what is wrong is a social convention. That is why laws change all the time and are different in different countries. You can not condemn people of the past based on your moral convictions of today.
That way expect to be condemned for living in a nice house in a rich country, wearing shoes that could feed a poor child for three months, while there is people starving in other countries. In other moral perspective, in the future, any normal citizen of today could be made responsible for letting millions die of starvation.

Your moral of today does not apply for the people in the past. You can not compare WWII with colonization, they are two different realities.
Unitedstatian   Sun Jul 09, 2006 2:12 am GMT
<<Of course, today no one thinks that it is a good thing to go and conquer another country to make it a colony, no one would think about doing it today. But it was necessary in the past>>

So what was the soviet invason of Afghanistan, the iraqui invasion of Kuwait , the invasion of Aghanistan and Iraq by the U.S. just to name only a few. Invasions and conquests never have stopped at all. To think that those things only happened in antique times is a wrong concept.
Gringo   Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:02 am GMT
Unitedstadian: The discution was about Portugal and the Netherlands not about the USA.
Sander   Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:59 am GMT
Gringo, I'm going to leave you alone with your nationalism.Have fun.
Latin American   Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:42 pm GMT
Here in Brazil, colonization is being taught as a bad thing. First of all, Brazil was a colony made for exploration in 1st place (unlike USA / Australia that were colonies for inhabitation). Portugal was atrocious ruler and therefore it is hated in Brazil. 500 years of Brazil discovery day (come on, Columbus discovered Americas; why should Brazil have separate discovery date?! at all) was practically ignored in Brazil. Speech of Portuguese president Sampaio was laughed at since no Brazilian understood his heavily accented dialect.


I totally agree with Kelly. In Spanish speaking America, Spaniards are seen like the bastards who raped our mothers.
Unitedstatian   Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:41 pm GMT
<<The discution was about Portugal and the Netherlands not about the USA>>

Whatever, conquests never have stopped like you have claimed. "Reasons", methods and weapons have the only ones that have changed.

<<Afghanistan, Kuwait are they colonies of the United States? I don't understand if you are speaking about invasions or colonies>>

As I said before the methods have changed and today to have a colony doesn't mean necessarily to live in it. Invaders can take lots of gains from them even without living there, just keeping the control is enough.
greg   Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:42 pm GMT
this is a "latin" posing as an American. Clearly