Southern European arrogance???

Joey   Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:34 pm GMT
Gringo
(Ido not agree.
If the Portuguese has the slightest impression the other speaker thinks Portuguese are Spanish speakers, it is not undermined he will feel, he will think the other guy is an ignorant. As plain as that.)

Toda a gente sabe que Portugal é uma provincia de Espanha.
David   Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:15 pm GMT
I'm Portuguese and I like FN and we should tell Brazilians to skip our country.
David   Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:18 pm GMT
" I'm Portuguese and I like FN and we should tell Brazilians to skip our country. "
It wasn't me who wrote this
Gringo   Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:29 pm GMT
««Toda a gente sabe que Portugal é uma provincia de Espanha. »»

Only those who think that Spain is still a province of Rome....Keep dreaming.
Joey   Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:10 pm GMT
Gringo

(««Toda a gente sabe que Portugal é uma provincia de Espanha. »»

Only those who think that Spain is still a province of Rome....Keep dreaming.)

Gringo I was just messing with you just to prove a point don't tell me it didn't drive you up the wall.
Gringo   Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:03 am GMT
««Gringo I was just messing with you just to prove a point don't tell me it didn't drive you up the wall.»»

Huh? I couldn't care less. I find it hilarious. And no, no driving up the wall I prefer the road.

Do you think we prove the same point if I said that: "Toda a gente sabe que Espanha é uma provincia de Portugal"

Or you think Spaniards would not give you a matching answer? You suppose they would go up the wall?

Now, tell me that a person that is able to reach to the conclusion that a Portuguese is a Spanish speaker (not a French one or a German one) is a very bright person. Wouldn't this mean any Spaniard (or Spanish speaker) is a Portuguese speaker too? How nice.
But when the answer they get is in Portuguese the conversation flows pretty well...in English.

Clever, very clever hehe... someone with no knowledge of languages, history, geography. It is obvious the guy is dumb. Even more if it was someone that learned Spanish. In which part of Spanish lessons does it say that Portuguese speak Spanish? You don't think that schools teach that Portuguese speak Spanish, do you?

Why would someone feel undermined with someone else's ignorance?


What point was that you wanted to prove?
LAA   Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:20 am GMT
To all the Portuguese folks here,

I do not speak Spanish to Portuguese speakers assuming that they automatically know Spanish, or that Spanish is basically the same language, or that they are basically Spaniards anyway. I ask them if they speak English, and if they only speak a little bit of English, I ask them which language they would prefer. Most northern European tourists do speak English, while Latin tourists generally do not. Portuguese, Spanish, and Italian speakers almost always prefer Spanish to English, because they can understand a great deal of Spanish, as the language is much more akin to their own, then English is.

To the rest,

I am also disgusted when Americans travel abroad and expect everyone to speak English. I have only been to Hispano-America, but even when my Spanish was very limited, I always made an effort to at least speak Spanglish.

Keep in mind that the people I'm talking about are tourists in MY country.

These Latin Europeans I'm speaking of seem very haughty toward me, until they learn I speak Spanish, a Latin language. Suddenly, I'm in their little club almost, and they treat me with more respect. Many assume I'm a Spaniard, and sometimes, to keep them in a good mood, I just play along.
Gringo   Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:20 am GMT
««Portuguese, Spanish, and Italian speakers almost always prefer Spanish to English, because they can understand a great deal of Spanish, as the language is much more akin to their own, then English is. »»

I disagree with you. A Portuguese will not prefer to speak with you in Spanish; he will only not mind that you speak Spanish instead of English if you are a native Spanish speaker.

A Portuguese speaker does not speak Spanish and the conversation is supposed to be a dialog not a monologue, so the answer you will get will be in Portuguese. If it is hard for a native Spanish speaker to understand spoken Portuguese imagine a non native. And Portuguese speakers only understand some Spanish, not everything.

So if you do not understand Portuguese the conversation will have to be in Portunhol which requires a good command of the Spanish language so that you can switch to synonims and can identify false friends to be able to speak and, many times, guess what the Portuguese speaker is trying to say. Portunhol is not Spanish and is what you will get.

Portunhol, in this case, has no rulles, different people speak a different Portunhol. You either have a very good command of the Spanish language or forget it, it is only for native speakers (Portuguese and Spanish). Only native speakers can invent a new dialect on the spot.


And the false friends are a head ache:
http://ec.europa.eu/translation/bulletins/puntoycoma/47/pyc476.htm
Gringo   Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:48 am GMT
««Keep in mind that the people I'm talking about are tourists in MY country.

These Latin Europeans I'm speaking of seem very haughty toward me, until they learn I speak Spanish, a Latin language. Suddenly, I'm in their little club almost, and they treat me with more respect. Many assume I'm a Spaniard, and sometimes, to keep them in a good mood, I just play along. »»


That "MY country" does not give you any superiority towards the tourists, in your case they pay your wages too. Really what do you mean with it?
That they have to speak with you because they are in your country? Grow up.
(do you also use that argument when you speak with your Mexican family huh?)

"treat me with more respect" .... this is what you are complaining? People do not respect you if you speak English? I never head that from any other English speaker.


Only people that have SOMETHING in common belong to a "club" like that.
Never heard: birds of a feather flock together?

People accept you in their "club" maybe because they think you are also a foreigner in a strange land.

English speakers are not supposed to be foreigners in the USA but local tourists; Spanish, Italians, French, Portuguese are foreign and many like to share their good and bad travel experiences with other tourists, not with local people.

You sound like someone that thinks the world revolves around your bellybutton.
LAA   Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:21 pm GMT
Gringo, I'm putting you on my naughty list, along with Sander, the Romanians, and Greg.

"That "MY country" does not give you any superiority towards the tourists, in your case they pay your wages too. Really what do you mean with it?
That they have to speak with you because they are in your country? Grow up. "

Did I say that? No. You simply stated that when travelling abroad, an English speaker should not expect everyone else in the foreign land to speak to him in English. Nor should they behave rudely or arrogantly toward those who do not speak English, because after all, you are a guest in THEIR country. This is perfectly reasonable. So, why does this same rule not apply to foreign tourists in the U.S? They shouldn't expect Americans to speak their language, and then treat them rudely if they do not. I've seen countless Latin Europeans screaming at the young women who work at the front desk, because they don't understand Italian, or Portuguese, etc, as if yelling at someone will helpt them to understand you better. They seem to forget that they are not in Italy or Portugal. I can't tell you how many times the girls at the front desk frantically called in us guys from the kitchen who could hopefully understand at least 10% of Italian or Portuguese, to try to calm the situation.

And fyi, I do not speak to these people when I'm on the job. I like to make conversation with people while I'm on my own leisure time, and there's nothing wrong with that. If they can't be respectful and courteous toward a well mannered fellow guest while laying out by the pool or in the spa, then it is they who have to go back to Kindgergarten to learn some manners, not I.

Of all the foreign tourists groups here, I seem to fit in best with the Latin Americans. It's a delight to be able to communicate with somebody, and with someone who doesn't perceive himself to be superior toward you.
Gringo   Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:15 am GMT
««Gringo, I'm putting you on my naughty list, along with Sander, the Romanians, and Greg. »»

Nice! Maybe we can start a club: "the club of the naughty list".

««They shouldn't expect Americans to speak their language, and then treat them rudely if they do not. I've seen countless Latin Europeans screaming at the young women who work at the front desk, because they don't understand Italian, or Portuguese, etc, as if yelling at someone will helpt them to understand you better.»»

No, Americans are not expected to speak the tourist's language. But the people on the front desk of a Hotel that has European guests on a regular basis ? Yes, they are expected to speak the tourist language, at least the most internationally spoken.

No wonder your guest scream. How can they be understood? You think tourists have to learn English to stay in a hotel in the USA?

In most European countries, if not all, no hotel employs a person, for the front desk, that does not speak two or three languages. (Unless they do not have foreign tourists)

To work in any area of business that deals with foreign tourists it is required the knowledge of two or more languages to get the job.


««They seem to forget that they are not in Italy or Portugal. I can't tell you how many times the girls at the front desk frantically called in us guys from the kitchen who could hopefully understand at least 10% of Italian or Portuguese, to try to calm the situation. »»


It seems the kitchen guys are working in the wrong place... the kichen guys speak foreign languages, the front desk doesn't. Amazing!!

That would not hapen in Italy or Portugal, with tourists from all over Europe, in many hotels, even the waiter has to speak more than two languages at a basic level.

I am trully amazed to know that in a hotel that has European tourists as guests, on a regular basis, no one in the front desk speaks a foreign language. Great business strategy to please tourists!!

I am starting to think those tourists must be crazy....getting upset because no one understands them in the Hotel....why do they need to be understood any way?
LAA   Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:12 am GMT
The guys in the kitchen are Hispanic, so they speak Spanish and English. The girls at the front desk only speak the international language, English.

You think that screaming at people is justified just because they don't speak your language, when you are in their country? You're nuts!
JR   Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:28 am GMT
I don't think he meant 'scream' in the litteral way
Uriel   Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:18 am GMT
In California, those "girls at the front desk" would have to speak at least five major languages to deal with the types of tourists that come through there, if they were going by Gringo's logic -- and Portuguese and Italian STILL wouldn't be in that list!

Let's face it, tourists of ANY country often aren't on their best behavior. It isn't just the American ones that everyone so loves to bitch about -- people have told horror stories about Brits, Australians, Germans, etc. it's just a common feature of any people who are in a strange place, stymied by the language, low on sleep, worried about money, belongings, and accommodations, have just endured travelling the not-so-friendly skies, probably gotten lost a few times, have cranky chjildren, harried spouses, etc. etc.... they're just displaying ordinary human stress behavior!
greg   Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:21 am GMT
LAA : « Gringo, I'm putting you on my naughty list, along with Sander, the Romanians, and Greg. »

Tu devrais plutôt essayer de rédiger une liste d'idioties à éviter à l'avenir.

Et aussi une liste de choses intelligentes à connaître avant d'inonder ce site d'inepties.

Et enfin une liste de langues à apprendre : ça te rendrait plus crédible.

Finalement, n'oublie pas de faire une liste de listes : t'as du pain sur la planche.