What's your favorite language family?

« I have never been to Germany, but it seems a lot like the U.S., as far as mainland European countries go. »

Well, I've never been outside of Europe, but I'd say that Germany is the country the most like Britain which I have visited, apart from perhaps Ireland. Germany seems very similar to England, actually (and I'm talking about lifestyle, mannerisms, attitudes to various social issues, religion etc., rather than the superficial things like political systems or government actions). However, I've never been to the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway or Denmark, so possibly Britain might be more similar to some of those than to Germany.

However, I'm not able to comment on how similar Germany is to the US. I will say though that I tend think that the similarities between Britain and the US are often overestimated. In practically every way except for language, Germans generally seem LESS foreign to me than Americans usually do.

But then again, some people on this forum would claim that Germany is actually more similar to the US than to France (on the basis of the whole Latin/Germanic thing), which is something which had not even crossed my mind before I came here.

I think it's sad and tragic that many people, still to this day, associate Germans and Germany with the horrors of World War II. I know that from speaking with native Germans, it is a period of their history that they're not proud of, and they would like to forget about it. Germans have a lot to be proud of. They're technologically brilliant. Their nation is an economic powerhouse, the economic engine of Europe. So, I would say that Germans have far more to be proud about than to be ashamed of.

a.p.a.m. : « I know that from speaking with native Germans, it is a period of their history that they're not proud of, and *they would like to forget about it*. »

Oublier son passé, c'est se condamner à le revivre.

"Oublier son passé, c'est se condamner à le revivre."

I think Greg said that by forgetting its past, Germany condemns herself to reviving it. I seriously can not picture a nation like Germany, reverting back to imperialist fascism in the 21st century. They are, along with France, the pillar of the European Union, and do not act with the same soveriegn power that European countries used to. They are by no means militaristic, as their army, and the percentage of GDP which they reserve for defense needs is very small. Germany is a very left-wing, social-democratic country, with the leftist sentiment very strong in Germany, as opposed to the U.S., or even the U.K. And Germany, is technically still occupied by the U.S.! Germany, along with Japan, is host to our largest number of troops outside the U.S., with something like 100,000 U.S. troops currently stationed in bases in Germany.

Benjamin,
You brought up an interesting point, and I too share your same opinion. Europeans have more in common with each other, even between northern and southern, than they do with Americans, in many ways. America exists on a seperate continent, over 6,000 miles away across the Atlantic Ocean, and has been subjected to 2 1/2 centuries of its own independent, cultural evolution, and that does not include the centuries long, colonial period. So, we eat different foods. For instance, early in the day, it is common for Europeans to have cold meats, etc., which we do not like, and this is something that Europeans desperately miss about their home country when they are here.

America is very different from Europe. Things of a superficial nature like politics, governments, etc., are very, very different as you said. We have our own sports which we watch for entertainment, while you guys watch football/soccer. We drive different cars, and on the other side of the road. People are more religious, more conservative, more traditional in rural areas, and in large parts of the American south, and the heartland. Our schools are different. We have our sport teams as part of the school. We attend four year high school courses, which are just general education, and don't "specialize" in anything. Nobody asks high school students, "what they study" or "what their major is". We go on "vacation", not "holiday". Everything is very different. And in so many ways, Britain, as a European country, shares much more in common with the continent, including countries like Holland and Germany, than it does with the U.S.

That being said, I think the U.K. is still as removed from the continent as its geographical position accross the channel would suggest. It is the most similar country to the U.S. which exists in Europe, as it is itself, at a comfortable distance from Continental Europe in many ways. There are certain things which all Anglo-Saxon peoples have in common, and that is what draws the comparision between the U.K. and the U.S., and many falsely assume that we posess a close relationship, on a non-governmental basis.

"But then again, some people on this forum would claim that Germany is actually more similar to the US than to France (on the basis of the whole Latin/Germanic thing), which is something which had not even crossed my mind before I came here. "

Right, and this whole notion is ridiculous. The U.K. and U.S. are close political allies, and share much in common in political opinion (although this is still closer to Europe), economics, government actions, etc. We speak the same language, and share all the things which unites people of the same tounge, and we might have somewhat of a similiar mentality in our approach to some things. But that is the extent of our similarities. Nobody outside of intellectual circles ever gives the whole "Latin vs. Germanic" idea any consideration, and I would bet that most people wouldn't even be able to tell you what it is. The average Joe does not walk around thinking of Germany, England, and the Netherlands as "Germanic countries". He just sees them for what they are at face value, as modern, 21st century, European countries. Many group all of the Latin countries under one roof, as if they are all practically of one uniform culture. In reality, there are great differences between them. France is France, with a distinct culture of its own, as is Spain, Italy, Portugal, and all the others.

<<I think it's sad and tragic that many people, still to this day, associate Germans and Germany with the horrors of World War II. I know that from speaking with native Germans, it is a period of their history that they're not proud of, and they would like to forget about it. Germans have a lot to be proud of. They're technologically brilliant. Their nation is an economic powerhouse, the economic engine of Europe. So, I would say that Germans have far more to be proud about than to be ashamed of.>>

Sono d'accordo completamente.

LAA — I agree very much with the spirit of your post.

« We attend four year high school courses, which are just general education, and don't "specialize" in anything. »

Actually... this is one area in which the US and much of Mainland Europe are more similar to each-other than either are to Britain. The American and French schooling systems, for example, seem more similar to each-other than to the British (or more accurately English, because it's different in Scotland) schooling systems, at least as far as I'm concerned.

And on a sort of related note... a lot of people will hate me for saying this, but there is one big way in which the Americans and the French are more similar to each-other than either: they (the Americans and the French) both appear to view their country as a sort of humanitarian project — presumably because both were born out of revolutions. The Americans are always going on about 'Freedom' and the French are always going on about 'Republican Values', both of which seem to encompass each-other in a number of ways. Both societies appear to have certain core values to which the most part of the population seem to aspire (at least notionally). And these values seem to be taken rather seriously. Both countries also appear to be rather overtly patriotic as well.

Now, people are probably going to claim that it isn't particularly similar at all, or that all this is nonsense. But to someone from somewhere with no-written constitution and no established core values, where patriotism is usually a taboo, where there is a great deal of general apathy — I'm talking about Britain and more specifically England — it really does seem like quite a similar mentality.

« We drive different cars, and on the other side of the road. »

Actually, all of Mainland Europe drives on the same side of the road as America. It's only Britain, Ireland, Cyprus and Malta which drive on the left.

« There are certain things which all Anglo-Saxon peoples have in common, and that is what draws the comparision between the U.K. and the U.S., and many falsely assume that we posess a close relationship, on a non-governmental basis. »

Although there are certain ties between all so-called 'Anglo-Saxon' countries which aren't based upon governments, I'd say that those between Britain and the US are probably amongst the weaker. Ignoring governments and focusing exclusively on way of life and mentality (i.e. 'culture'), the similarities between the US and Britain are not as strong as those between the US and Canada, nor are they as strong as those between Britain and Australia and New Zealand. And even then, Australia and New Zealand probably have more ties with each-other than either have with Britain, which is not to mention the extremely strong ties between Britain and Ireland. And then, Britain probably has more similarities with Canada than with the US, and I might hesitate to suggest that the US might be more similar to Australia than to Britain in a lot of ways (this is based on what others have said, not any personal experience).

I've also noticed a tendency for some people to include South Africa in the 'Anglo-Saxon' equation. Now, the appropriateness of that would make for a very very interesting discussion!

* there is one big way in which the Americans and the French are more similar to each-other than either are to the British

"Although there are certain ties between all so-called 'Anglo-Saxon' countries which aren't based upon governments, I'd say that those between Britain and the US are probably amongst the weaker. Ignoring governments and focusing exclusively on way of life and mentality (i.e. 'culture'), the similarities between the US and Britain are not as strong as those between the US and Canada, nor are they as strong as those between Britain and Australia and New Zealand. And even then, Australia and New Zealand probably have more ties with each-other than either have with Britain, which is not to mention the extremely strong ties between Britain and Ireland. And then, Britain probably has more similarities with Canada than with the US, and I might hesitate to suggest that the US might be more similar to Australia than to Britain in a lot of ways (this is based on what others have said, not any personal experience). "

To the tee. I agree with all of those things. Although, we do share sort of the same Anglo-Saxon mentality. It's hard for us to see the similar relationship, but for the French it is not.

"I've also noticed a tendency for some people to include South Africa in the 'Anglo-Saxon' equation. Now, the appropriateness of that would make for a very very interesting discussion! "

They do so because South Africa was a former British colony, and part of the British commonwealth. Many South Africans speak English, etc. The countries which are traditionally grouped as "Anglo-Saxon" are mainly the U.S. and the commonwealth, ie., U.S., Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, and the U.K. The mentality which exists in all these countries to one extent or another, is that "live to work" mentality. You work hard, take less time for leisure, you're not affectionate if you're a man, etc. This is seen as very "Anglo-Saxon" to Latin peoples like the French. Even the Anglo approach to economics, politics, war, and race is different and very "Anglo-Saxon" in uniformity. The British thought of their empire and non-white colonial subjects in an entirely different way than the French did. The British saw them as racially inferior, and undeserving of recieving British citizenship and culture. Mixing with the natives would be taboo. The French saw their colonial empire as merely more of an extension of greater France. They frequently married among the native colonials, etc. This finely illustrates the different mentalities between the two people, with the Anglo mentality still present in the descendants of English colonies. But the U.S., more than any other English speaking country, is the farthest removed culturally from Britain. This is partly the result of three things. Geographic isolation and distance, revolutionary republican anti-British sentiment, and the introduction of foreign cultures from immigration. The colonies were already a very different place from the mother country in the time of George Washington and Benjamin Franklin. People had different accents, customs, etc. Local cuisine was influenced by the native variety of vegetation, and thus there were strong regional differences. Little differences also existed within language (using native American or Spanish words for things), dances, dress, grooming style, etc. But once and after the revolution broke out, Americans sought to distance themselves from their relatives in Britain. Americans boycotted tea, and thus we became a coffee-drinking nation. This is just one example. Then, you have two centuries of tidal waves of foreign immigrants pouring their distinct cultural heritage into the mixing pot that would later become America. All these factors, coupled with over two and half centuries of isolated evolution, significantly distanced the U.S. from Britain in more ways than one.

The languages I speak are Germanic, Paleo-Asiatic, Sino-Tibetan, and Romance.

I love the sound of the Native American languages of the North American Plains. (Cheyenne, Arapahoe, Lakota, etc.)

There is one Native American language which I find to be very alluring and that is "Loochi", a native language of southern Mexico. There is an incredibly strong sing tone to the language. So much so, that one can convey a simple message to another soley by means of humming the words with his mouth closed. Amazing!

« The British thought of their empire and non-white colonial subjects in an entirely different way than the French did. The British saw them as racially inferior, and undeserving of recieving British citizenship and culture. Mixing with the natives would be taboo. »

I remember Sander mentioning on another forum (the same people show up everywhere!) that the Dutch had a rather similar attitude to their colony in Indonesia. Apparently, they believed that the Indonesians weren't good enough to learn Dutch. Equally, considering how racialist the German nationality laws still are (Guestworkers and Right of Return), maybe it's more of a 'Germanic' thing than a specifically 'Anglo-Saxon' thing. ^_- But then again, until fairly recently, I'd assumed that the term 'Anglo-Saxon' included the Germans anyway! And actually, I'd say that most of the stereotypes of 'Anglo-Saxons' which you listed are equally applicable (at least stereotypically) to the Germans anyway.

Yes, well the "Anglo-Saxons" are a branch within the "Germanic" family. I would still differentiate between continental Germanic peoples, language, etc., and Anglo-Saxon ones. I meet tourists every day as I've said before. Northern Europeans tend to talk a lot about physical characteristics, and race. The French that come here from Alsace-Lorraine and areas like that, seem to me to be much more like Germanic peoples than they do the Latin tourists. The French as a whole seem much more aloof and mild than the other Latin tourists. But they do have this casual "Latin" mentality.

« Yes, well the "Anglo-Saxons" are a branch within the "Germanic" family. I would still differentiate between continental Germanic peoples, language, etc., and Anglo-Saxon ones. »

Actually though, German and Dutch are more closely related to English (West Germanic) than to any of the Scandinavian languages (North Germanic).

I was talking primarily about cultures, and not languages when I made that point. English is still a very distant member of the Germanic family.

LAA : « "Oublier son passé, c'est se condamner à le revivre." I think Greg said that by forgetting its past, Germany condemns herself to reviving it. I seriously can not picture a nation like Germany, reverting back to imperialist fascism in the 21st century. »
Il existe des formes de fascisme infiniment plus subtiles que Hitler & Cie. Et peu de juifs allemands ont pris au sérieux la menace hitlérienne qui planait sur eux dès la fin des années 30. Je fais confiance aux Allemands et à leur vigilance. Eux, mieux que nous, savent qu'il est primordial de se souvenir. Mais il évident que la France, elle aussi, ferait bien de se méfier de ses propres extrémistes.

LAA : « They are by no means militaristic, as their army, and the percentage of GDP which they reserve for defense needs is very small. »
Certes. Mais dépense militaires franco-allemandes combinées avoisinent tout de même 90 % du montant russe — lui même 6 fois inférieur à celui des États-Unis, il est vrai. La France et l'Allemagne disposent de 450 à 500.000 hommes dont 30.000 stationnés à l'étranger. C'est peu comparé aux États-Unis : ~ 1.400.000 & ~ 360.000. Mais les ambitions militaires ne sont pas les mêmes...
NB : les armes nucléaires françaises protègent l'Allemagne de facto.

LAA : « Germany is a very left-wing, social-democratic country, with the leftist sentiment very strong in Germany, as opposed to the U.S., or even the U.K. »
Attention ! L'Allemagne a été le paradis du bolchévisme, du communisme, du socialisme et de l'anarchisme entre 1918 et 1933. Ça n'a pas empêché le pire de se produire.