European Languages - A Comparative Analysis
« As an effort to explain this sound to other Spanish speakers (and as far as I know, to other Italian speakers as well) I would say, that 'i' is a very short, wide open, towards 'e' sounding 'i'. »
Yes, that sounds about right! It's definitely very short, and comes from the back of your throat — bit like in the 'a' in the British (and to a lesser extent North American) pronunciation of 'cat' (but not like the Australian, New Zealand or South African pronunciation!)
" After an embarrasing beach/bitch episode "
I have the same problem than your husband, I can't make the difference between "bitch" and "beach" (even if I know the difference of meaning!!)
One of the major difficulty of the English pronounciation of french or french-derived words is how the vowels are pronounced completly deifferently to the french version. For us, it is very un-natural to pronounce french words so distorted - but we have to do it if we want to be understood.
in my text, some of those words are pronounced so much differently that they are completly unintelligible : derived / dérivé; version / version; natural / naturel, etc.
" I pronounce "commerce" as this: (kah-merss). The first 'c' is hard, like a "k" sound, while the second 'c' is soft like an 's' sound "
Commerce/comercio both are pronounced in fr, sp and english with the same "c". What always change dramatically between the French/Spanish pronounciation and the English one (of similar words) are the vowels - most of them are pronouced so alienly... "a" soundings like a french "ey", "o" sometimes pronounced like a french "a", "e" pronouced like a french "i", and "i" pronounced like french "ail".
we just have to compare the way a french, a spaniard and an american would pronounce "McDonald's" to understand what it is all about.
" To pronounce the Spanish 't' (Mexican version), one can either press his tounge against the back of his top teeth, or he can put his tounge between his teeth, without letting air out. "
This is exactly the way the "t" is pronounced in french.
consonants that are pronounced dramatically differently in English :
- the "liquid english "l", very different form the spanish and french "quick/dry" ones.
- the "w", this sound originally almost doesn't exist in french, most of the words with "w" we use are direct imports of germanic language, especially from english or German. In french it should be pronounced as a equivalent of "v" (ex. wagon). the same way in spanish.
" Can some body do me a favor and list a few words in French which end with a 't' sound? "
there are quite much. all the feminine words like "patiente, partante, lente, intelligente, enervante, exitante, persistante, etc.
'fit' and 'feet'
I didn't know that "fit" and "feet" had to be pronounced differently. I personally can't make any difference.
<<Our phonetics is so poor, that we just have five vowel sounds, and that's all!!!.>>
Sergio,
I'd say simple, not poor. ;-)
They don't *have* to be pronounced differently; you can learn Australian pronunciation if it's easier.
Fab,
"intelligente"
Now, tell me if I'm right with the English phonetic spelling of this word:
Fr. - intelligente (een-tel-ee-gant)
The same for "persistante", right?
Fr. - persistante (per-seest-ant)
Am I correct with the above two?
*When reading my phonetic spelling of the two words above, you must take French pronounciation of 't' and 'r' into account.
<<I didn't know that "fit" and "feet" had to be pronounced differently. I personally can't make any difference. >>
This discussion has been very revealing of our ignorance of foreign languages' pronounciation. In English, the 'i' sound is short, as opposed to long. In French and Spanish the 'i' sound is the equivalent of the English 'ee' sound.
In English, vowels can be short or long. Ex:
'O' - Short=Hot
Long=Mobile
'E' - Short=(E)ngine
Long = D(e)crease
'A' - Short = Autumn
Long = Apple
'I' - Short = Inconcievale
Long = I
'U' - Short = Unsatisfactory
Long - Unicorn
I hope you don't mind me butting in... (sorry)
« Fr. - intelligente (een-tel-ee-gant) »
No. The 'in' in French is more or less [a~] (a nasal vowel), whilst 'g' is soft like [Z] before an E or an I.
« 'A' - Short = Autumn
Long = Apple »
That one doesn't work at all for me, but I'll believe that does in your dialect!
" Now, tell me if I'm right with the English phonetic spelling of this word:
Fr. - intelligente (een-tel-ee-gant)
The same for "persistante", right?
Fr. - persistante (per-seest-ant)
Am I correct with the above two? "
I don't understand your question. I'm not an english speaker, I think, as an anglophone person that you know better than me how to pronounce it in English.
All I can say is that as far as my knowledge of english goes, is that the way we would pronounced "intelligente" or "persistant" in french and english would be very different.
"in" would not be pronounced the same way at all. In french we don't say the 'n', while you'll say "een" in english
"telli", in french we won't pronounce the english "liquid l".
"gent", in english the "g" sounds "dj" for us, while the french "g/j" sound without this "d" sound tipical of english "g/j". the french "en" sounds completly different form the english one. your transcription "gant", for me would sound with a hard "g", because situated after an a, it that really how you would pronounce it in english ? It would not be the case in French.
the "ey" sound of the english "a", the "per" would be pronouced "père"(with french phonetic). To compare and have an idea of what you mean we should either ear it or write it in the international phonetic system, which one I don't know.
Greg is a specialist of phonetics, maybe he could enlight you.
<<That one doesn't work at all for me, but I'll believe that does in your dialect!>>
Yeah, you guys usually pronounce the 'A' as a short vowel. We would say "Atom", with a long 'A', whereas you would say "Atom" with a short 'A', similar to a short 'O' as in "(O)ctober".
<<No. The 'in' in French is more or less [a~] (a nasal vowel),>>
Okay, I get this part.
<<whilst 'g' is soft like [Z] before an E or an I. >>
I am afraid I don't understand this part. Are you saying that the 'g' should be pronounced like the 'g' in "Giant", or as in the 'g' in 'Geek'. I thought it was the former for this word.
>>- the "w", this sound originally almost doesn't exist in french, most of the words with "w" we use are direct imports of germanic language, especially from english or German. In french it should be pronounced as a equivalent of "v" (ex. wagon). the same way in spanish.
The grapheme "w" in Spanish is only used with imported words mostly from English. BUT we pronounce it like in English, not like "v". Frenchs normally do pronounce this letter like English "v".
In German, "w" is pronounced like English "v", but it is funny that they tend to keep the German sound for this letter when speaking English. They are either unable or unwilling to hear the difference, which is huge, if one consideres the place of articulation of each sound!!!
Sigma : « I agree with Tiffany's husband that 'ee' and 'i' isn't possible differentiate them. Para mi también es imposible diferenciar "ee" e "i" en Inglés. »
C'est quand même pas si difficile : c'est comme en allemand —> <bieten> vs <bitten>.
" This discussion has been very revealing of our ignorance of foreign languages' pronounciation. In English, the 'i' sound is short, as opposed to long. In French and Spanish the 'i' sound is the equivalent of the English 'ee' sound. "
I'm sorry I'm not a native English speaker as you are, so I don't notice the subtilities (from a non-native speaker the difference beetween "ee" and "i" is a unperceptible subtility) of the English language (which is very far the foreign language I know the best, in which I have certainly a lot to learn).
The English pronounciation is so alien from the french one (even german is sounds (at least vowels) are less difficult) that it is very difficult without hard training to be able to catch those subtilities and to reproduce them, even if it is of course natural for you, being Anglo-saxon.
I know plenty of people who live in French (fluently but with an accent) since years but continue to not hear some of the sounds that are very différent to us such as "é vs è",
"est vs es" or "eu vs e", etc.
No Fab, I meant for French pronounciation of the word
No need to feel offended by my pointing out each other's ignorance of other languages. That is why I included myself, when I said "This discussion has been very revealing of OUR ignorance of foreign languages' pronounciation." I too was ignorant of a few subtilities of French.