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Tio and Tia - The same in Spanish and Greek
<<I did not know that. Very interesting. I am conversing with a Spanish girl from Malaga on myspace, and so maybe I'll call
her "tia". >> LOL! LAA don't do it, 'tia' could has a bit of despective sense. It's like a girl who is flirting with you suddenly calls you 'guy'.
Do you know how when a man is being flirtatous with a woman, and he calls her "mija", is this "tia" for "chick" thing in Spain the same thing basically?******
"Mija" es un slang que se traduciría como "mi hija", no estoy seguro, pero me parece que se aplica unicamente a Hispanoamérica y no a España. Mejor dile "Maja" que quiere decir "Guapa". OL! LAA don't do it, 'tia' could has a bit of despective sense. It's like a girl who is flirting with you suddenly calls you 'guy'.**** No necesariamente, en España es muy común llamar a una chica "tia" y a un chico "tio" y no quiere decir que se usa de una forma despectiva, todo depende del sentido que le des.
Brennus,
>>Your question is difficult to respond to because you are trying to introduce a language which is not a Romance language (German) into the equation. It is much like trying to compare an orange with three apples. On the other hand, if you were to ask "Do the Catalán and Romanian words for "uncle," oncle and unchi(u) make them closer to Latin like French? " my answer would be "Yes, in this regard." << Okay, so if French, Catalan & Romanian have a derive word of-unculus- why didn't you mentioned the other two in the first place? Eh? The reason why I depicted 'German' in the equation (as you put it) was to simply show your lack of support of the other two (i.e. Catalan & Romanian), and to criticize your vague response. Anyhow, in the bottom portion I'm going to represent a few words in Spanish, NOT founded in any other language. *With the exception of Portuguese in one word > parva/o-little, small; - {Latin} párvulo/a-very small, tiny;- {Spanish} *ultimately, -pequeño/a- comes from -parva- rubor/a: -red- {Latin} rubor/rubra:- (-masculine-) 'red/bright-red or blushing' {Spanish} ruboro: -red & blushing {Spanish} *ultimately, -rojo/a- comes from -rubor/a nunquam:-never- {Latin} nunca:- never, ever- {Spanish} nunca:-never, ever- {Portuguese} & avis:-bird- {Latin} ave:-bird- {Spanish} Etc. So, Brennus; is spanish in this respect -closer- to Latin?
««Anyhow, in the bottom portion I'm going to represent a few words in Spanish, NOT founded in any other language. *With the exception of Portuguese in one word »
Sorry, JR all those words exist in Portuguese too. Parvo - stupid , ignorant rubor - blush, shyness pt rubro -rosy, ruddy pt nunquam:-never- {Latin} nunca:- never, ever- {Spanish} nunca:-never, ever- {Portuguese} avis:-bird- {Latin} ave:-bird- {Spanish} ave -bird pt for ave there is also passaro in Portuguese but I think in Spanish there pajaro (?)
<<No necesariamente, en España es muy común llamar a una chica "tia" y a un chico "tio" y no quiere decir que se usa de una forma despectiva, todo depende del sentido que le des. >>
Correcto, pero de todas formas no suena muy romantico que digamos.
fab : « in French, the childish name is "tata" and "tonton" ».
Fr <tata> est peut-être à rapprocher de Ga <tatí> (on trouve aussi <tanta> & <sian> en gascon) mais surtout des formes <totan> & <tatan> qu'on retrouve dans l'aire arpitane (francoprovençale) mais aussi en français : <la tatan> {tante} comme <la maman> {mère}. On trouve aussi Fr <tantine> & <tati(e)>. Fr <tonton> serait une réfection de <oncle> sur le modèle de <tata> (allittération & assonance). Fr <oncle> {oncle paternel ou maternel} est bien issu de La <avunculus> {oncle maternel}, La <patruus> étant {oncle paternel}. Al <Onkel> & An <uncle> en sont dérivés via l'ancien français (AF) pour l'anglais : AF <uncle>, <unkle>, <unkel>, <unkele> etc. Fr <tante> {tante paternelle ou maternelle} est issu — indirectement — de La <amita> {tante paternelle} ; La <matertera> = {tante maternelle}. Indirectement parce qu'en ancien français (AF) on trouve les formes AF <ante>, <aunte> & <aunt> (d'où An <aunt> est directement issu). Les formes AF du type <a(u)nt(e)> représentent le cas sujet (nominatif) tandis que les formes du type AF <a(u)ntain> expriment le cas régime (oblique = tout sauf nominatif). Il est possible que AF <antine> (comparer avec Fr <tantine> soit lié à AF <a(u)ntain>). L'apparition de la dentale [t] est sans doute due à l'agglutination¹ du possessif <ta> — raccourci en <t> (élision devant la voyelle à l'initiale de AF <a(u)nt(e)>). J'ignore si une forme ?<anta> a existé en latin. On peut schématiser comme suit : La <tua amita> → AF <t'ante> <t'aunte> <t'aunt> → Fr <tante>. C'est cette dernière forme qui s'est propagée à l'allemand : Al <Tante>. ¹Le phénomène d'agglutination existe encore en français moderne : Fr <mononcle> & Fr <matante> (doublement agglutiné : <ma> + <t> <ante>) sur le schéma de <Monsieur>, <Messieurs>, <Madame>, <Mesdames>, <Mademoiselle>, <Mesdemoiselles>, <Monseigneur>, <Messeigneurs>, <Messire>, <Messires> etc. On retrouve <matante> au Québec, en Wallonie et dans le Nord de la France ; par exemple : <ma matante> ou <ta matante>. Fr <oncle> (etc) poitevin <unclle> <tantin> picard <onque> <mononque> wallon <onke> <nonke> <mononke> <mon.nonke> <mounonke> <monôke> gallo ? Fr <tante> (etc) poitevin <unte> <ante> <tante> <tatate> <tata> <tantan> <tantine> picard <tante> <matante> wallon <matante> gallo <auntt> <tauntt>
Brennus,
>>The answer is yes. However, keep in mind that only one of the Latin words you mentioned 'nunquam' probably entered Spanish (nunca) directly from Vulgar Latin. The other words you mentioned: parvus, rubor, avis are what linguists call "learned words". "Learned words" are proper forms that are later reintroduced into a language after they have been absent for a while, usually by scholars or clergymen.<< Learnt words are sometimes applied more, rather then the typical or standard ones. For example; in -Argentina- they use & say "ave" more often then Pajaro. Mexico is another good example, where do use more academic words then standard ones. Example: lomo, lamina, nalga etc {Standard-spanish: espalda, chapa, culo etc} Nevertheless, -spanish- has indeed included thousands of words from Classical-latin; with the development of the literary language. Non obstante, -romanian- has included 38% of it's language directly from French & Italian. Essentially, -romanian- consisted of roughly 37-47% Latin stock before the reintroduction. Quote from wikipedia: "Since the 19th century, many modern words were borrowed from the other Romance languages, especially from French and Italian (for example: birou < bureau = desk, office; avion = airplane; exploata = exploit, etc). It was estimated that about 38% of the number of words in Romanian are of French or Italian origin and adding this to the words that were inherited from Latin, it makes about 75-85% of the Romanian words that can be traced to Latin." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language Also, not to mention that it has borrowed from various other languages (i.e. Slavic, Greek, Albanian etc) Anyhow, I'll look into those books; good-day.
"Also, not to mention that it has borrowed from various other languages (i.e. Slavic, Greek, Albanian etc) "
JR, Spanish also borrowed from many many other languages. List of Spanish words of Germanic origin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Spanish_words_of_Germanic_origin List of Spanish words of African origin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Spanish_words_of_African_origin List of Spanish words of Celtic origin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Spanish_words_of_Celtic_origin List of Spanish words of Basque/Iberian origin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Spanish_words_of_Basque/Iberian_origin List of Spanish words of French origin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Spanish_words_of_French_origin List of Spanish words of Indigenous American Indian origin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Spanish_words_of_Indigenous_American_Indian_origin List of Spanish words of Semitic origin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Spanish_words_of_Semitic_origin List of Spanish words of Turkic origin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Spanish_words_of_Turkic_origin List of Spanish words of various origins: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Spanish_words_of_various_origins I am sure you will find how Latin is Spanish if you have a look at the: "Breve diccionario etimológico de la lengua española" by Guido Gómez de Silva (ISBN 968-16-2812-8)
Fed up & Brennus,
Standard -Romanian- is in many ways artificial and, most surely fails to convey an idea of the diversity of the -Romanian- language as it has been spoken in the lands traditionally inhabited by Romanians, those being, roughly, Transylvania, Banat, Wallachia and Moldova. The only sub-dialect standard Romanian offers a rather accurate representation of, is the Wallachian one spoken in southern Romania. Phonologically, at least, standard Romanian took nothing from the other subdialects spoken in Banat, Transylvania and Moldova. Except for the Wallachian sub-dialect, nowhere are the dental consonats left intact, but they are all palatalised to a certain degree (phenomenon attributed by many linguists to a northwestern Slavic -of the Slovakian sort- influence); the labials are also palatalised in almost all of the northen Romanian subdialects, and even in some regions of southern Romania. In Banat and Moldova and many parts of Transylvania, the affricates become fricatives in various stages; and the examples could go on. Examples of -Romanian- to the statement above^---->>>> -Contemporary Romanian- "square bracket" words are French or Italian loanwords: "Toate fiinţele {umane} se nasc {libere} şi {egale} în {demnitate} şi în drepturi. Ele sunt înzestrate cu {raţiune} şi {conştiinţă} şi trebuie să se {comporte} unele faţă de altele în {spiritul} {fraternităţii}." -Romanian-, excluding -French- or -Italian- loanwords - "square bracket" words are Slavic loanwords: "Toate fiinţele omeneşti se nasc {slobode} şi {deopotrivă} în {destoinicie} şi în drepturi. Ele sunt înzestrate cu cuget şi înţelegere şi {trebuie} să se poarte unele faţă de altele după firea frăţiei." -Romanian-, excluding loanwords: "Toate fiinţele omeneşti se nasc nesupuse şi asemenea în preţuire şi în drepturi. Ele sunt înzestrate cu cuget şi înţelegere şi se cuvine să se poarte unele faţă de altele după firea frăţiei" ---->>> Now, compare -spanish- to THREE examples of -Romanian- above^: "Todos los seres humanos nacen libres e iguales en dignidad y derechos y, dotados como están de razón y conciencia, deben comportarse fraternalmente los unos con los otros." (((>I don't see any "borrowings" from 'germanic, celtic, indigenous-american indian, semetic, iberian, basque, turkish etc.<))) This is evident as to say -romanian- has extensive borrowings; and that -romanian- itself can be written/said in different forms, hence 'with or without' neologisms (i.e. French or Italian) or Old-Church Slavic. On the other hand, spanish does NOT portray this. Which makes it FAR more conversative to it's inhabitants and native speakers. LINKS: Anyhow, here are some works cites: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language (in general, it depicts the other various ones) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dacian_words (list of dacian words in -Romanian-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dacian_plant_names (more) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_vocabulary (Evolution of -Romanian-) http://www.cimec.ro/Istorie/neacsu/eng/letter.htm (oldest text of -Romanian-, 1521)
"Spanish will still always be basically a Romance or Latin type language"
It is neither the most latin language nor the one closer to Latin. There are thousands of words in spanish that have unknown origin, probably native pre-rRoman. The constant need that some people in this forum have to make spanish look very latin while making other latin languages look as second class latin languages is ridiculous . Romanian is as artificial as spanish.
<<The constant need that some people in this forum have to make spanish look very latin while making other latin languages look as second class latin languages is ridiculous .
Romanian is as artificial as spanish. >> No, that would be the Romanians. Romanian is artificial because it did not take on the words of other languages by means of a natural evolution and adoption of loaned words like other languages do. Romanian scholars literally sat down, and looked at Latin and other Latin languages like Italian and French and introduced these into the Romanian dictionary, which was then transmitted to the schools, so that the rising generation would be learned in this new, artificially injected vocabulary. The Latin influence in Romania was not nearly as strong as in Italy, Spain, France, etc. Dacia was one of the last provinces to be added to the empire, and it was one of the first to be lost. Subsequently, Romania was isolated from the Latin, Catholic West all throughout the dark and middle ages, undergoing a seperate, eastern and orthodox development. Italian and French have retained about 90% of Latin vocabulary, while Spanish and Portuguese are close seconds. In addition to that, Spanish, like Italian, has retained much of the original phonology, while French and Portuguese and others underwent a lot of foreign phonological influences, which really enriched its phonology.
LAA : « Romanian is artificial because it did not take on the words of other languages by means of a natural evolution and adoption of loaned words like other languages do. Romanian scholars literally sat down, and looked at Latin and other Latin languages like Italian and French and introduced these into the Romanian dictionary, which was then transmitted to the schools, so that the rising generation would be learned in this new, artificially injected vocabulary. »
En suivant ton brillant raisonnement, nul doute que cette logique implacable s'applique à cette espèce de sous-interlingua à laquelle se résume ton idiome maternel.
JR:
««ruboro: -red & blushing {Spanish} *ultimately, -rojo/a- comes from -rubor/a» “Roxo”, in Portuguese used to mean red, now it means purple. Red in different languages: Portuguese->Roxo. Proto-Celtic-> *Roudo. Proto-Celtic-> *Rokki. Latin ->Rubor. Guest: ««Sorry, JR all those words exist in Portuguese too. Parvo - stupid , ignorant rubor - blush, shyness pt rubro -rosy, ruddy pt»» Proto-Celtic-> *an-φlabro -> dumb. Portuguese->Parvo -> stupid , ignorant, dumb. Latin-> Parvo-> small. Portuguese->Párvulo->child, small, dumb. (rare or not used) Portuguese->Parva*-> small meal before lunch. (rare or not used) LAA: ««In addition to that, Spanish, like Italian, has retained much of the original phonology, while French and Portuguese and others underwent a lot of foreign phonological influences, which really enriched its phonology.»» Really I do not know what you mean by “original phonology”; original from Rome or from Hispania? Foreign from where? Probably you mean a phonological influence not original from Rome, because the inhabitants of Hispania were not from Rome. Spanish retained much of the original Iberian or Latin phonology? To know this you really have to know what was the phonology of the native languages. You forget that people were bilingual for a long time. The phonological substratum interference must have been very big. Hispanicos in Roman times had a “provincial” accent when speaking Latin, the foreign accent from the substratum language. And there were many languages in the peninsula, according to ancient sources. So, there must have been many accents. You can say Spanish has a simple phonology like Latin had, but to say that it retained ( much of ) the Latin phonology while others underwent a lot of foreign phonological influences is something different. You really need to know what was the phonology of the native languages of Hispania. Euskara is one of them , and is different from Celtic. Even Hadrian had a provincial Latin accent, and he was rich and had good teachers. Imagine a poor person with no instruction. Hadrian lived from 76 to138, so I assume Hispanicos never spoke Latin with a Latin accent. They wrote about Hadrian: III. 1 Quaesturam gessit Traiano quater et Articuleio consulibus,in qua cum orationem imperatoris in senatu agrestius pronuntians risus esset, usque ad summam peritiam et facundiam Latinis operam dedit. 3 3 He held the quaestorship in the fourth consulship of Trajan and the first of Articuleius, and while holding this office he read a speech of the Emperor's to the senate and provoked a laugh by his somewhat provincial accent. He thereupon gave attention to the study of Latin until he attained the utmost proficiency and fluency. [Historia Augusta, The Life of Hadrian by LacusCurtius ]
Catalan : <avoncle> <oncle> {germà del pare o de la mare}.
Ancien catalan (català antic) : <avoncle> <avonclo>. Vous confirmez les catalophones ?
Gringo,
Yes, I understand that the various provinces featured unique regional accents, due in part to foreign substratums. Yet, when I say that modern Spanish and Italian have retained a more "Latin" phonology, I am referring to tradtionally Latin sounds like rolled 'r's, vowel rich endings of words, etc. Other Latin languages like French and Portuguese, have undergone extensive phonological enrichment because of the influences of Celtic languages possibly. Examples of this would be the rather flat endings of many words, the uvular 'r', and the numerous nasal sounds. Spanish too has deviated from the original Latin phonological system. Spanish "j" and "g" sounds seem to indicate some Arabic phonological influence. Italian, in my opinion, seems to sound the most pure, or the most authentically "Latin" in terms of its pronounciation system. That is just my opinion. And out of the major Romance languages, I feel that Spanish is a close second. |