importance of the ancient languages

Pauline   Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:10 am GMT
We learn Latin and Ancient Greek, we study those texts. Why we don't learn Old Norse ? This is cultural discrimination, one-sided viewing history, or a choice made after valid criteria ?

What's your opinion ?
Pauline   Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:40 am GMT
I think that Fredrik will have an opinion about this. :-)
Hans   Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:13 pm GMT
Latin and Ancient Greek are studied because the civilizations in which these languages were spoken, influenced to a very large extent our western way of thinking.

Old Norse didn't although it would be fascinating to learn what the Vikings felt when they were plundering other countries.
Did the Vikings actually speak Old Norse? For sure the original Scandinavians did not leave large volumes of writings behind.
The same goes for old English. There is hardly anything left in writing, if at all, how the Germanic tribes expressed themselves , say 2000 years ago.
greg   Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:52 pm GMT
Hans : betreffend das Altnordisch bin ich mit dir ganz einverstanden.

Trotzdem kann ich leider nicht damit übereinstimmen, daß altenglische Litteratur und Schrifttum unbedeutend waren. Au contraire, je crois la littérature anglo-saxonne médiévale était très riche.

NB : la littérature en vieil-anglais ne saurait être considérée qu'après le milieu du Ve siècle (pas avant 1500 ans en arrière).
Pauline   Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:41 pm GMT
Then, why we not study medieval anglo-saxon litterature ? Of course, it wouold be very difficult, but Latin and Ancient Greek are also .
Benjamin   Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:10 pm GMT
We do sometimes study medieval English literature (Chaucer) from the 14th century, which isn't Modern English. However, the English of Chaucer is still closer to Modern English than to Old English (Anglo-Saxon), so that might not have been what you meant.

Personally, I would have loved to have had the opportunity to learn Old English, but I've never heard of anyone learning it at school. Ancient languages are only really studied in private schools in England now, and it's almost always Latin or sometimes Classical Greek.
Pauline   Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:23 pm GMT
Hello Benjamin :-)

I meant the predecessor language, so yes, it include Chaucer.

I think to leanr Old english would be very interesting - I woulod like to see how does it compare with german and ducth. If at school people would study this, then we would more quickly see the connections and similarities that the differences between the countries. Maybe this would be a good developpment.

Latin is obligatory at belgian grammar school. i learned some, but then i've missed some months and I didn't caught up, so I decided to not continue. Greek is an option, and I didn' t learned it.

what you know abotu Sanscrit ?
Hans   Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:07 pm GMT
Pauline , I saw this posted somewhere by one Adam and the Dutch was filled in by a certain Jo.
It is in old English, English and Dutch where this Jo knew the word
Maybe Fredrik can write old Norsk or just plain Norse next to it.

Animals

ǽl – eel - aal

bár – boar -beer

bucc – buck - bok (male goat)

bulluc – bullock

cocc – cock

earn – eagle - adelaar

eoh – horse

eolh – elk - elk

fearh – pig, boar

fisc – fish - vis

forsc – frog

fox – fox - vos

géac – cuckoo - koekoek

hǽring – herring - haring

hengest – horse - hengst (male horse)

hund – dog - hond

hwæl – whale - walvis

mearh – horse - merrie (female horse)

seolh – seal (animal)

swertling – titlark

wulf – wolf - wolf
People

beorn - warrior

bydel - beadle

ceorl – churl

cniht – boy - knecht ( helper, workman)

cyning – king - koning

dweorg – dwarf -dwerf

eorl – nobleman

gást – spirit - geest ( obviously ghost)

hæft – captive verhaft (german)

hwelp – whelp - welp

mǽg – kinsman

þegn – thane

þéof – thief - dief

wealh – foreigner

wer – man - man


Concepts

áð – oath - ede

borg - pledge - (waar)borg

céap – price - koop ( buy)

coss – kiss - kus

cræft – skill, strength - kracht

cwealm – death

dóm – doom - doem

dream – joy, revelry

fæðm – embrace

fléam – flight - vlucht

gang – going - gaan

gielp – boasting

hlæst – burden - last

hréam – cry, shout, uproar - schreeuwen

torn – grief

þanc – thought - gedachte

wæstm – growth - gewas /wassen (to grow)


Nature

æcer – field - akker ( obviously acre)

bæst – bast - bast

béam – tree - boom

beorg - hill - berg

blóstm – blossom - bloesem

bóg - bough

bolt – bolt

bróm – broom (the plant) - bloem (flower)

clam – mud

clút – patch

cnoll – knoll - knol

codd – cod, husk

cropp – sprout - krop

forst – frost - vorst

hægl – hail - hagel

hærfest – autumn - herfts

healm – haulm - halm

hláf - loaf

horh – dirt

hrím – rime - rijm

hýdels – hiding place, cave

mæst – mast - mast

mór – moor

múð – mouth - mond

regn - rain - regen

sealh – willow

slóh – slough, mire

stán – stone - steen

storm – storm - storm

stréam – stream - stroom

swamm – fungus - zwam

Body

beard – beard - baard

bearm - bosom

bósm – bosom - boezem

búc – stomach - buik

cnyttels – sinew

earm – arm - arm

heals – neck - hals

hóf – hoof hoef

lást – footprint

múð – mouth - mond

nægl – nail - nagel




Clothing / Accessories

béag – ring, bracelet

gyrdels – girdle

helm – helmet - helm

hring – ring -ring

scóh – shoe -schoen

séam – seam -zoom

smocc – smock

stæf – staff - staaf

wrigels – covering


Buildings / Places

botm – bottom - bodem

byrgels – tomb

ealh – temple

geard – yard

hám – home - haven ( now means port in dutch)

healh – corner

hwamm – corner

pearroc – park - park

rúm – room - ruimte (space)

stól – stool - stoel

þorp – farm, village - dorp

þrop – farm, village

weall – wall - wal
Benjamin   Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:20 pm GMT
Pauline,

« I woulod like to see how does it compare with german and ducth. »

Here is the Lord's Prayer in Old English:

Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum,
Si þin nama gehalgod.
To becume þin rice,
Gewurþe ðin willa,
On eorðan swa swa on heofonum.
Urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg,
And forgyf us ure gyltas,
Swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum.
And ne gelæd þu us on costnunge,
Ac alys us of yfele.

Much of the difficulty in understanding that is that spelling conventions have changed so much, and that the majority of Old English literature is apparently written in a dialect which is different from the one from which Modern English is largely derived.

And in Modern German:

Vater unser im Himmel,
Geheiligt werde dein Name.
Dein Reich komme.
Dein Wille geschehe,
Wie im Himmel so auf Erden.
Unser tägliches Brot gib uns heute.
Und vergib uns unsere Schuld,
Wie auch wir vergeben unseren Schuldigern.
Und führe uns nicht in Versuchung,
Sondern erlöse uns von dem Bösen.

And in Modern Dutch:

Onze Vader in de hemel,
Laat uw naam geheiligd worden,
Laat uw koninkrijk komen
En uw wil gedaan worden
Op aarde zoals in de hemel.
Geef ons vandaag het brood
Dat wij nodig hebben.
Vergeef ons onze schulden,
Zoals ook wij hebben vergeven wie ons iets schuldig was.
En breng ons niet in beproeving,
Maar red ons uit de greep van het kwaad.
Liz   Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:11 pm GMT
Hello, Pauline and Benjamin,

these texts seem to be familiar to me... I don't know why... :-))

Of course I know! Good old days (not that old, maybe), sweet memories! I had to study a bit of Old and Middle English at university. We used to have seminars in historical linguistics, where we had to read several texts in Old and Middle English, including the aforementioned text (I mean the Lord's Prayer). I agree with Benjamin: these texts seem to be a bit complicated because the spelling conventions have changed reasonably.

Not only did we study Old and Middle English that time, we had to read texts in Old High German, too! (I'm an English-German double major at uni.) It was awful! I mean, it was interesting, but starting immediately with Old German literature...is a little to much.

My "favourite" (take it as a tongue-in-cheek remark) ancient languages are the proto-languages (Proto-Indo-European etc.). How the hell we know what they were like if we have no evidence? They are only hypothetical ones, obviously.

Besides, I was wondering how do we know the Old and Middle English pronunciation? I have listened to recordings, but the texts were presented by contemporary British actors.

I have also learnt a bit of Latin at secondary school. We had a horrible teacher, who had a terribly excrutiating type of articulation even in his mother tongue, let alone his Latin. I found Latin very interesting and I understood a lot of things right from the start; partly because my mother tongue has a lot of Latinate words, and partly because of my experience in learning other languages. But when we had to translate Cicero's speeches after only a year of learning the language, I changed my mind.

BTW, it would be interesting to learn Old Norse (I know only a few words) and Ancient Greek, too.
My father's ex-literature teacher has an MA in Latin and Ancient Greek! Oh, my God! What kind of person he might be! :-))
Liz again   Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:15 pm GMT
<<My father's ex-literature teacher has an MA in Latin and Ancient Greek>>

What I wanted to say is "he has a degree in Latin and Ancient Greek".
Hans   Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:07 pm GMT
I made an effort to see what those words would be in todays English.
Anybody please correct where I might be wrong.

Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum,
Father ours thu who art in heaven
Si þin nama gehalgod. ( Si = Sei , Zij)
Be thy name (ge)hollied
To becume þin rice,
to (be)come thy reign (rice = reich, rijk)
Gewurþe ðin willa,
gewurde thein wille (gewurde = be done)
On eorðan swa swa on heofonum.
on earth as in heaven
Urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg,
our daily bread give us today
And forgyf us ure gyltas,
And forgive us our guilts
Swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum.
as ( well as )we forgive their guilts ( urum =Ihre?)
And ne gelæd þu us on costnunge,
and not (ge)lead you us in temptations
Ac alys us of yfele.
but lose us of evil.
Arthur   Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:34 pm GMT
>>I found Latin very interesting and I understood a lot of things right from the start; partly because my mother tongue has a lot of Latinate words,

Liz, I think I read that you are from Hungary. If so, are there really so many Latinate words in Hungarian? I was in Hungary for five weeks some years ago, and I couldn't find many words which would help me to understand even vaguely the subject of a text. Did I miss them so terribly then?... ;)
Pauline   Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:11 pm GMT
Hans,

it's a wonderful list & i can notice that the Dutch is more similar that the Modern English ; is it always this way ? It would be very interestign to see the Norse also.

Benjamin and Hans,
those were very interesting comparisons :-) I lilke this letter :ð what a pity it is not in modern english, and more languages.

Liz,

I'm surprised (arthur also) that hungarian does have latin words, because I thought hungarian isn't related to the european languages, so not the latin (and not the germanic, slavic etc..) .
Guest   Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:34 pm GMT
<<Liz, I think I read that you are from Hungary. If so, are there really so many Latinate words in Hungarian? I was in Hungary for five weeks some years ago, and I couldn't find many words which would help me to understand even vaguely the subject of a text. Did I miss them so terribly then?... ;)>>

Yes, you are right. I'm Hungarian.

Funnily enough, there are plenty of Latinate words in Hungarian. Of course, most of them are not used in colloquial, everyday speech. These are used in formal or academic language. It is similar to the case of French words in English: if you use too many of them, you may be regarded as stilted and pretentious.

Familiarity with these words makes easier for you to understand several words when reading a Latin text. Of course this is not that easy and straightforward: you have to think a lot because the Latin(ate) loanwords have different forms in Hungarian.

Arthur,
have you been to Hungary? Really? How come? Where exactly?