Objective criteria to judge the pleasantness of an accent?

Uvillo   Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:36 am GMT
With respect to the various accents of the English language, more often than not, we hear people (native speakers or non-native speakers alike) say that "** accent is more pleasing to the ear than ** accent. I like ** accent" (for example, RP vs. GA, Scottish accent vs. the estuary accent). The same can be applied to the comparison of the sounds of different languages. Interestingly, people versed in several languages may be heard to make remaks like "French is more musical than ** (which might be English, German, Japanese)" or "The sound of ** language is unpleasant (if not horrible) to the ear". With all that being said, I seriously wonder about this issue:

Are there any objective criterian at all for judging the musical pleasantness of either an accent of a particular language in comparison with other varieties or the sound (pronounciation) of a particular language in comparison with other languages? Note "objective" being understood in a strict sene of the word, as contrasted with "subjective". Throw yr say in this issue, please!:)
JW   Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:57 pm GMT
I would have to say no. Although strangely enough I often prefer one accent over another or one dialect over another, and I do not think this preference is simply my opinion. I suppose I consider it to be objective.
Jim   Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:40 pm GMT
Pleasantness is inherantly subjective, right ... right? Yeah, good question.
Uvillo   Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:31 am GMT
I guess there may be scientific criteria for the judging, but they are simply yet to be found out by linguists.
Liz   Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:55 pm GMT
I don't think there are objective criteria for judging the pleasantness of a particular accent/dialect. This is highly subjective. However, linguistic and social stigma and prestige play an important role here. If a language variety is heavily stigmatised, it is very likely to be considered unpleasant, too.
Uvillo   Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:32 am GMT
what if we analyze a given accent from a purely physical, acoustic angle?
Liz   Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:37 am GMT
<<what if we analyze a given accent from a purely physical, acoustic angle?>>

It can't be objective, either. All of us have a totally different way of perception, right? You might find an accent (without considering its social connotations) pleasant, while I find it extremely unpleasant. I might be wrong but I don't think we can analyse accents from a purely physical/acoustic angle.
Lazar   Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:24 pm GMT
I agree with Liz. I don't think there's any objective way determine the relative pleasantness of accents or languages.
Valentin   Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:31 pm GMT
I would like to say that certain accents of English are more likely to be lucid for English-speaking audience,than other. For example,in my very humble opinion ,African people who speak English as well as their native language, are difficult to understand. On the other side, Australian English sounds very clear.
Liz   Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:56 pm GMT
<<I would like to say that certain accents of English are more likely to be lucid for English-speaking audience,than other. For example,in my very humble opinion ,African people who speak English as well as their native language, are difficult to understand. On the other side, Australian English sounds very clear.>>

Valentin,
as you wrote, it is YOUR opinion, so subjectivity is always there. Although I share your opinion, I bet there are people who find South African English easier to understand than Australian English.
Uvillo   Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:48 am GMT
<<It can't be objective, either. All of us have a totally different way of perception, right? You might find an accent (without considering its social connotations) pleasant, while I find it extremely unpleasant. I might be wrong but I don't think we can analyse accents from a purely physical/acoustic angle. >>
<<All of us have a totally different way of perception, right? >>
<< I don't think we can analyse accents from a purely physical/acoustic angle.>>
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I have to disagree with Liz.
On what grounds can u claim that "All of us have a totally different way of perception"? When u claimed "All of us have a totally different way of perception", when u retorted by saying "it is YOUR opinion", you are just unduly exaggerating the element of subjectivity to an extreme.
Remember when u say "I don't think we can analyse accents from a purely physical/acoustic angle", it is also just "YOUR opinion".
True, as u put it --- "subjectivity is always there", it does not mean that subjectivity overrules all whenever there is a human element involved.
So far as the accent pleasantness issue is concerned, it is not like "One man's meat is another's poison". The sound quality of anything that involves sound, which is just there, can definitely come under physical/acoustic analyses. Nobody in their right minds would mistake noise for music. It is with the same with the sound quality of a given dialect/ language. When an overwhelming majority of people identify a particular accent/language as musically pleasing, won't this fact alone be telling us something? The French language serves an excellent case in point!
Jim   Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:03 am GMT
The sound of heavy machinery could be called noise but with its droning rhythm it can sound quit musical.
Jim   Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:06 am GMT
... On the other hand, right now there is music filling the room in which I sit. How I wish whoever turned that bloody racket on would pull the plug.
Liz   Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:01 pm GMT
<<On what grounds can u claim that "All of us have a totally different way of perception"? When u claimed "All of us have a totally different way of perception", when u retorted by saying "it is YOUR opinion", you are just unduly exaggerating the element of subjectivity to an extreme.>>

But yes, we DO have different ways of perception. Don't get me wrong. I'm not implying that it's only your opinion; of course, it's not only yours. Still, it's highly subjective.

<<Remember when u say "I don't think we can analyse accents from a purely physical/acoustic angle", it is also just "YOUR opinion".>>

Right you are. I'm fully aware of that, too. I have never claimed that it wasn't my opinion. You can't opinionate on anything without being subjective.

<<So far as the accent pleasantness issue is concerned, it is not like "One man's meat is another's poison". The sound quality of anything that involves sound, which is just there, can definitely come under physical/acoustic analyses. Nobody in their right minds would mistake noise for music. It is with the same with the sound quality of a given dialect/ language. When an overwhelming majority of people identify a particular accent/language as musically pleasing, won't this fact alone be telling us something? The French language serves an excellent case in point!>>

'One man's meat is another's poison' would be a slight exaggeration of the 'accent pleasantness issue'. However, there is some truth in it.

Just because a particular accent/dialect is considered to be pleasant by the vast majority of people doesn't mean that all the people have the same view. It depends on the area / country etc. where you live / where you emanate from.
I think the traditional Establishment English, the RP could be an illustrative example. This is the norm in most European schools, and therefore most Europeans (outside the UK) find it pleasant. They think of it as *the* British English English accent. On the other hand, the majority of Brits find it extremely excrutiating, and they might look askance at a person who is speaking with a cut glass U-RP accent (well known from old black and white films).

"Nobody in their right minds would mistake noise for music." (???)

Well, believe me, some do. Just listen to some of the present-day 'big hits'. :-)
Joking apart, the accent/dialect pleasantness issue is not that clear cut. How dare you call an accent 'noise'? (I might be slightly missing the point, but this is what you are insinuating, isn't it?) None of them are 'noise', all of them are 'music', for God's sake!

As far as French is concerned, I know a lot of people who find it extremely unpleasant, Heaven forbid, a torture to listen to. I'm NOT one of them, though.
Uriel   Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:34 pm GMT
I think the main criterion is that people tend to like accents that are different from their own. They find them exotic and interesting. Especially if they are similar enough to be easily understood, yet different enough to attract attention. So there would be no one accent that everyone likes.