The British are legendary for their incompetence with languages.
Does this sentence mean Britishers are poor at mastering foreign languages?
Does this sentence mean Britishers are poor at mastering foreign languages?
The British...incompetence with languages?
I'm familiar with the word "Britisher" - I think it was used in the US especially during the early twentieth century (I've seen it in some WW2-era media, for example); and some websites say that it's been used in Ireland as well.
I've heard it as well. It reminds me of German.
NIK, do you really want to know or are you just trying to stir up something here?
I've wondered this myself, but after living in different parts of the world, I think a lot of people (Americans, French, Japanese, and Italians, for example) struggle to master a second language. Or did. Things are changing with the internet. People can arrange to meet native speakers and exchange languages, so the world is becoming smaller in a way.
My impression is that English-speaking natives of GB weren't required to learn foreign languages in the past. Perhaps this has changed and one of the many natives of GB may correct me on this.
In any case, just because you meet some folks from GB on holiday in Spain or France who can't manage simple greetings in the local language doesn't mean EVERYONE is similarly impaired.
Knowing languages is a great thing, but it isn't everything.
I hope you asked this out of curiosity only.
NIK, do you really want to know or are you just trying to stir up something here?
I've wondered this myself, but after living in different parts of the world, I think a lot of people (Americans, French, Japanese, and Italians, for example) struggle to master a second language. Or did. Things are changing with the internet. People can arrange to meet native speakers and exchange languages, so the world is becoming smaller in a way.
My impression is that English-speaking natives of GB weren't required to learn foreign languages in the past. Perhaps this has changed and one of the many natives of GB may correct me on this.
In any case, just because you meet some folks from GB on holiday in Spain or France who can't manage simple greetings in the local language doesn't mean EVERYONE is similarly impaired.
Knowing languages is a great thing, but it isn't everything.
I hope you asked this out of curiosity only.
K. T.
Oh, I am asking this seriously. The sentence is from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary. I am just not quite sure about its semantic meaning. As the word "language" ended with plural, it sets me wondering that way. Anyway, thank you for your patient reply.
Oh, I am asking this seriously. The sentence is from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary. I am just not quite sure about its semantic meaning. As the word "language" ended with plural, it sets me wondering that way. Anyway, thank you for your patient reply.
I have never heard of the term "Britisher" but I'm wondering if it may have originated in Germany (assuming it is a word that is used to mean Britons. I mean, the Germans do use Englander do they not? Not Scotlande though, as far as I know.
As for British competence in the study and use of foreign Languages - I think those of us who DO buckle down and learn Languages other than our own native English are pretty competent in both learning and speaking them, but the truth of it all is that it iS a minority who do this. The biggest hindrance by far for us is the fact that we are English speaking, and English is now virtually universal - it is understood more or less right across the globe outside the other English speaking countries. In most dealings of the EU administration English is more or less the lingua franca, the main Language of communication right across the whole 27 member States.
All this has created an attitude within the British psyche whereby it is not really necessary to learn other Languages at all - the old adage "Well, everybody understands English!" runs true for many Britons. Perhaps this can be taken as a form of arrogance, as it's not true that "everyone" outside the UK (in non English speaking countries) understands English, so it is wrong for Britoms to expect everyone to understand them when they are in these countries....sadly, many do, and that may, and actually does, cause resentment and indignation. It's embarrassing to hear some Britons abroad raising their voices and getting wound up because their top decibel yelling (in English) remains totally incomprehensible to the poor locals unfortunate enough to encounter them.
I do think that the English, generally and particularly, are not particular gifted in the pronunciation of foreign words or phrases anyway - some of them really DO give the impression of being ignorant and arrogant when they try to pronounce these words, especially placenames. They make you think they actually get some amusement from making a dog's breakfast of trying to pronounce them. I should know - I'm a Scot, and I've heard English people make a total hash of our Scottish place names and think it's funny. Ask the people of Auchterarder or Ballachulish, just for starters. For the Welsh, this is even more acute, as their places names really and truly are a challenge, which makes the English take great delight in hashing them up as horribly as they can. Ask the people of Machynlleth or Llanfairmathafarneithaf, just for starters!
Seriously though, it's a fact that the interest in foreign Language learning in the UK generally has in fact declined, and fewer people are now studying them beyond the elementary stages in those schools where they are on the curriculum - you can drop the subject at a certain stage in education if you wish to, and even the take up of foreign Language study at UK universities has also taken a dip in recent years. I think that's sad, but the blame can chiefly be laid at the door of the English Language itself - the (mistaken) mindset of "everybody outside the UK understands English so why bother to learn other Languages!" is quite widespread, and very unfortunate it is, too.
Anyway, I'm not sure that the UK is very much worse than any other English speaking country, really, when it comes down to it - are they more keen to learn foreign Languages in Canada, or OZ or NZ, or the USA for that matter? I know they have many immigrants or people whose heritage is not that of the UK or any other English speaking country, but would those who are brought up in the English Language in the USA or the other countries I mentioned be more inspired then Britons to learn Languages other than their own? I rather doubt it....I know that Spanish has a very high profile in America, but do native English speakers there go out of their way to learn Spanish? I rather doubt that, too. Correct me if I'm wrong.
As for British competence in the study and use of foreign Languages - I think those of us who DO buckle down and learn Languages other than our own native English are pretty competent in both learning and speaking them, but the truth of it all is that it iS a minority who do this. The biggest hindrance by far for us is the fact that we are English speaking, and English is now virtually universal - it is understood more or less right across the globe outside the other English speaking countries. In most dealings of the EU administration English is more or less the lingua franca, the main Language of communication right across the whole 27 member States.
All this has created an attitude within the British psyche whereby it is not really necessary to learn other Languages at all - the old adage "Well, everybody understands English!" runs true for many Britons. Perhaps this can be taken as a form of arrogance, as it's not true that "everyone" outside the UK (in non English speaking countries) understands English, so it is wrong for Britoms to expect everyone to understand them when they are in these countries....sadly, many do, and that may, and actually does, cause resentment and indignation. It's embarrassing to hear some Britons abroad raising their voices and getting wound up because their top decibel yelling (in English) remains totally incomprehensible to the poor locals unfortunate enough to encounter them.
I do think that the English, generally and particularly, are not particular gifted in the pronunciation of foreign words or phrases anyway - some of them really DO give the impression of being ignorant and arrogant when they try to pronounce these words, especially placenames. They make you think they actually get some amusement from making a dog's breakfast of trying to pronounce them. I should know - I'm a Scot, and I've heard English people make a total hash of our Scottish place names and think it's funny. Ask the people of Auchterarder or Ballachulish, just for starters. For the Welsh, this is even more acute, as their places names really and truly are a challenge, which makes the English take great delight in hashing them up as horribly as they can. Ask the people of Machynlleth or Llanfairmathafarneithaf, just for starters!
Seriously though, it's a fact that the interest in foreign Language learning in the UK generally has in fact declined, and fewer people are now studying them beyond the elementary stages in those schools where they are on the curriculum - you can drop the subject at a certain stage in education if you wish to, and even the take up of foreign Language study at UK universities has also taken a dip in recent years. I think that's sad, but the blame can chiefly be laid at the door of the English Language itself - the (mistaken) mindset of "everybody outside the UK understands English so why bother to learn other Languages!" is quite widespread, and very unfortunate it is, too.
Anyway, I'm not sure that the UK is very much worse than any other English speaking country, really, when it comes down to it - are they more keen to learn foreign Languages in Canada, or OZ or NZ, or the USA for that matter? I know they have many immigrants or people whose heritage is not that of the UK or any other English speaking country, but would those who are brought up in the English Language in the USA or the other countries I mentioned be more inspired then Britons to learn Languages other than their own? I rather doubt it....I know that Spanish has a very high profile in America, but do native English speakers there go out of their way to learn Spanish? I rather doubt that, too. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I think that one reason E1Lers have a hard time with foreign languages is that the apparent grammar is so simple that it spoils you. Many folks on this board have mentioned that basic English grammar is childish or pidgin-like in its simplicity, and even go so far as to claim that its expressivness is severly limited compared to more complex langauges. (Of course, gaining total mastery of English, or any other language, with all its subtleties and nuances may be non-trivial.)
E1Lers may be turned off when they try to learn a more typical language, with genders, lots of irregular noun/verb/adjective inflections, tones, non-alphabetic writing systems, ergativity, strange phonology, polysynthetic agglutination, vowel harmony, etc. On the other hand, native speakers of these more complexl languages have an easy time learning English (other than spelling?).
E1Lers may be turned off when they try to learn a more typical language, with genders, lots of irregular noun/verb/adjective inflections, tones, non-alphabetic writing systems, ergativity, strange phonology, polysynthetic agglutination, vowel harmony, etc. On the other hand, native speakers of these more complexl languages have an easy time learning English (other than spelling?).
I think pretty much everything Damian said applies equally well to Americans. And I agree that not a particularly large proportion of our population bothers to learn even Spanish... many of them will take a couple of years in it in school, but that is not nearly enough to really get familiar with the language. I had three years of it in high school and it wasn't until I started studying on my own that I even began to become functional in Spanish. Not because it takes more than three years to learn a language like Spanish, but because high school is a pretty crappy way to learn a language.
- Kef
- Kef
>>I think that one reason E1Lers have a hard time with foreign languages is that the apparent grammar is so simple that it spoils you. Many folks on this board have mentioned that basic English grammar is childish or pidgin-like in its simplicity, and even go so far as to claim that its expressivness is severly limited compared to more complex langauges. (Of course, gaining total mastery of English, or any other language, with all its subtleties and nuances may be non-trivial.)
E1Lers may be turned off when they try to learn a more typical language, with genders, lots of irregular noun/verb/adjective inflections, tones, non-alphabetic writing systems, ergativity, strange phonology, polysynthetic agglutination, vowel harmony, etc. On the other hand, native speakers of these more complexl languages have an easy time learning English (other than spelling?).<<
I would not say that English grammar is simple at all underneath it all. The matter is simply that English is rather analytic for an IE language, and the superficial aspects of English grammar do tend to seem rather simple. However, the closer one looks at English grammar the more complex it tends to get, and it is often quite arbitrary in nature as well.
E1Lers may be turned off when they try to learn a more typical language, with genders, lots of irregular noun/verb/adjective inflections, tones, non-alphabetic writing systems, ergativity, strange phonology, polysynthetic agglutination, vowel harmony, etc. On the other hand, native speakers of these more complexl languages have an easy time learning English (other than spelling?).<<
I would not say that English grammar is simple at all underneath it all. The matter is simply that English is rather analytic for an IE language, and the superficial aspects of English grammar do tend to seem rather simple. However, the closer one looks at English grammar the more complex it tends to get, and it is often quite arbitrary in nature as well.
I agree with the Guest that, regardless of English's actual level of complexity, the *apparent* relative complexity of most other languages can indeed be a turn-off for would-be language learners.
- Kef
- Kef
It's not the fault of English speakers, it's the fault of the education regime.
<<Not because it takes more than three years to learn a language like Spanish, but because high school is a pretty crappy way to learn a language. >>
American high schools. European high schools do it fine.
<<Not because it takes more than three years to learn a language like Spanish, but because high school is a pretty crappy way to learn a language. >>
American high schools. European high schools do it fine.
I doubt it. The very idea of teaching a langage to a large number of students at once is inherently flawed. The Antimoon website discusses it a bit. Sure, some students succeed, but they're the ones who are dedicated to the language in the first place.
I'm not doubting that European high schools do a better job of it. They probably do. I'm just saying that "better" is still a relative term and it doesn't mean they're good.
- Kef
I'm not doubting that European high schools do a better job of it. They probably do. I'm just saying that "better" is still a relative term and it doesn't mean they're good.
- Kef
Nik,
That's a valid reason for asking, so my "bad". I'm sorry for being a little suspicious. We have threads like that in the languages section of Antimoon and they end up being deleted because people resort to name-calling.
That's a valid reason for asking, so my "bad". I'm sorry for being a little suspicious. We have threads like that in the languages section of Antimoon and they end up being deleted because people resort to name-calling.