Here whe can continue this discussion, I hope.
LL and Y distinction
Hi,
Do you think that the moderator closes the Spanish threads because he is jealous and he is biased against Spanish?
Do you think that the moderator closes the Spanish threads because he is jealous and he is biased against Spanish?
Obviously yes. He doesn't close the stupid thread about "which language is your favourite", but closes a thread like "LL and Y distinction" which follows all the rules , and is strictly about linguistics. He simply does not know like Spanish and pretends this forum be more oriented toward French, which is less popular as you can see.
The fact that it is pointless in your opinion does not mean that it is pointless according to the forumers which posted many messages. It is much more pointless to say that your favourite language is this one or that one and you didn't close it. This thread follows all the rules and your role here is not to decide that a linguistic subject like LL /Y distinction is pointeless, in the end yo don't speak Spanish. You can't decide if it is pointless or not.
I agree with the Guest above, if a topic s strictly about a linguistc subject it does not have to be deleted. When people are not interested on it, they won't post on that thread, it is simple as that. Let the forumers decide what is pointless or not.
Even if I speak Spanish fluently I'll never pronounce that stupid sound. Standard Spanish gave it the sack some decades ago! Resign yourselves to this!
In the LL/Y post there were at least two people discussing that subject, why don't they have the right to follow that discussion? Only because you don't speak Spanish and don't find the relevance of it? I don't speak French and don't take part in the French threads, and If I were the moderator I would not delete them only because I would find them pointless.
If a thread does not follow the rules it must be deleted, and that is the case of the thread "which is your favourte language", because it is pointless and not directly related to linguistics but to personal preferences . Despite some of the forumers may say "don't delete it" it has to be deleted in accordance with the rules.Even more, you didin't ask in the LL/Y thread to delete it so you contradict yourself. By the way I answer NO.
If a thread does not follow the rules it must be deleted, and that is the case of the thread "which is your favourte language", because it is pointless and not directly related to linguistics but to personal preferences . Despite some of the forumers may say "don't delete it" it has to be deleted in accordance with the rules.Even more, you didin't ask in the LL/Y thread to delete it so you contradict yourself. By the way I answer NO.
There are not as many people who speak "Standard Spanish", for example the elision of d in -ado, is used by most of the Spanish speakers in Spain, and that does not mean that to pronounce "cantado" is not Standard Spanish. You interpret Standard Spanish as "the most usual Spanish" and that is not the case. I understand that Spanish students don't pay attention to these subtle details like LL/Y distinction, but anyway, the LL sound still has an important role in the prestiged European Spanish and at least, despite you will not pronounce LL, mainly because you can't, it is good to be aware of it.
Thank you for not deleting the initial thread, because there was an interesting link. It's this one:
http://jotamartin.byethost33.com/alpi0_e.php
Here you can find the isoglosses of the Spanish language in Spain.
Note how the elision of d in words ended in -ado and also the elision of final d are MUCH MORE common than the LL/Y distinction, but it does not make to say [cantao] or [mirá] instead of [cantado] and [mirad]Standard Spanish pronunciation . In fact cultured people tend to avoid this despite in normal speech it is more common [cantao] and [mirá] . Standard Spanish does not mean common Spanish used by most people, in fact it is used only in formal situations and only a few people speak Standard Spanish effortless and instinctively.
http://jotamartin.byethost33.com/alpi0_e.php
Here you can find the isoglosses of the Spanish language in Spain.
Note how the elision of d in words ended in -ado and also the elision of final d are MUCH MORE common than the LL/Y distinction, but it does not make to say [cantao] or [mirá] instead of [cantado] and [mirad]Standard Spanish pronunciation . In fact cultured people tend to avoid this despite in normal speech it is more common [cantao] and [mirá] . Standard Spanish does not mean common Spanish used by most people, in fact it is used only in formal situations and only a few people speak Standard Spanish effortless and instinctively.
<< http://jotamartin.byethost33.com/alpi0_e.php
Here you can find the isoglosses of the Spanish language in Spain.
Note how the elision of d in words ended in -ado and also the elision of final d are MUCH MORE common than the LL/Y distinction, but it does not make to say [cantao] or [mirá] instead of [cantado] and [mirad]Standard Spanish pronunciation . In fact cultured people tend to avoid this despite in normal speech it is more common [cantao] and [mirá] . Standard Spanish does not mean common Spanish used by most people, in fact it is used only in formal situations and only a few people speak Standard Spanish effortless and instinctively. >>
Yeah. The so called cultured people in the thirties.
Those maps are based on datas taken in the early thirties. Just read the page carefully.
Que logras hacerme reír, palloso!!
After all, the theme is LL and Y distinction.
The pronounciation of -ado as -adho is not showing any signs of extinction, whereas honest Spaniards would agree that LL and Y distinction is.
You're going to mak yourself sick by not accepting the truth.
It's your own decision.
And as I said, what you think in your imagnary world where "cultured" people distinguish LL and Y will not change the reality.
Here you can find the isoglosses of the Spanish language in Spain.
Note how the elision of d in words ended in -ado and also the elision of final d are MUCH MORE common than the LL/Y distinction, but it does not make to say [cantao] or [mirá] instead of [cantado] and [mirad]Standard Spanish pronunciation . In fact cultured people tend to avoid this despite in normal speech it is more common [cantao] and [mirá] . Standard Spanish does not mean common Spanish used by most people, in fact it is used only in formal situations and only a few people speak Standard Spanish effortless and instinctively. >>
Yeah. The so called cultured people in the thirties.
Those maps are based on datas taken in the early thirties. Just read the page carefully.
Que logras hacerme reír, palloso!!
After all, the theme is LL and Y distinction.
The pronounciation of -ado as -adho is not showing any signs of extinction, whereas honest Spaniards would agree that LL and Y distinction is.
You're going to mak yourself sick by not accepting the truth.
It's your own decision.
And as I said, what you think in your imagnary world where "cultured" people distinguish LL and Y will not change the reality.
Dear moderator, you don't need to lock this thread.
Those people who insist that LL and Y distinction is a sign of "culture" need a place to vent because the reality doesn't conform to their imaginary world.
Those people who insist that LL and Y distinction is a sign of "culture" need a place to vent because the reality doesn't conform to their imaginary world.
FYI, I am perfectly capable of producing the LL sound, and I actually did distinguish LL and Y for a some time. But as I had more natural contact with Spaniards, including Northern Spaniards, I conformed to them, oft unconsciously, for none of them distinguishes LL and Y in their speech.
"Palloso"? Well, you are not a native Spanish speaker. Are you the same who said that in Northern Spain they don't use LL? If you are not Spanish nor even speak Spanish properly how do you know it? Even in Internet you can find information which say just the opposite. This sound is not dead nor will dead, accept it.
About the link I provided, did I say that it is current data? The link above illustrates the situation of the Spanish language in 1930, but it helps to hold my argument because despite LL/Y distinction has diminished since then, people who still distinguish LL from Y are still the majority in Northern Spain. The map probably does not reflect the current situation of Madrid, which is already more yeista than in 1930, but for the situation in Northern Castile the situation has not change. And also it this map is useful because the elision of final d and d in -ado -edo -ido was already spreaded in practically ALL the country. And believe me, if that already happened in 1930, the situation now is not different. Regions in which people said "cantao" don't say "cantado" 60 years before.It is just the opposite, if there was a town in which they pronounced cantado, people no longer pronounce that way. So the conclusion of this : if the elision of d is not Standard Spanish despite virtually everybody elide d in final positions and in -ado -edo -ido, LL/Y distinction can be perfectly Standard Spanish. Nowadays, RAE says the same, it is preferable to make that distinction. Just listen to the RAE members, they all aren't yeista.
About the link I provided, did I say that it is current data? The link above illustrates the situation of the Spanish language in 1930, but it helps to hold my argument because despite LL/Y distinction has diminished since then, people who still distinguish LL from Y are still the majority in Northern Spain. The map probably does not reflect the current situation of Madrid, which is already more yeista than in 1930, but for the situation in Northern Castile the situation has not change. And also it this map is useful because the elision of final d and d in -ado -edo -ido was already spreaded in practically ALL the country. And believe me, if that already happened in 1930, the situation now is not different. Regions in which people said "cantao" don't say "cantado" 60 years before.It is just the opposite, if there was a town in which they pronounced cantado, people no longer pronounce that way. So the conclusion of this : if the elision of d is not Standard Spanish despite virtually everybody elide d in final positions and in -ado -edo -ido, LL/Y distinction can be perfectly Standard Spanish. Nowadays, RAE says the same, it is preferable to make that distinction. Just listen to the RAE members, they all aren't yeista.
<< The Spanish King also pronounces LL. Beautiful people in Spain pronounce LL. Of course yeistas are predominant, but in the end exclusivity and cultural refinement don't abound as much as vulgarity. It depends on the social and cultural level to which you belong or you are more used to interact with. If I spoke to low class Spaniards I would try to pronounce LL like Y despite I'm not yeista, but among cultured people it is expected to pronounce LL properly. There is certainly a movement in the instruction of the Spanish language , and also in other areas, which tends to delete every sign which delates the social and cultural extraction of the speakers, so they encourage to everybody to pronounce LL like Y despite they are not natively yeista. Their mantra is : reduce everything to the lowest common denominator so everybody speak the same and can't be discrimination. >>
"Por qué no te callas?"
As the Spanish King said it, with a Y sound, by the way. ;-)
But then again, no tienes que callarte, because you're giving me some good laugh. LOL!!
Keep on living in your imaginary world, if you want to. ^^
"Por qué no te callas?"
As the Spanish King said it, with a Y sound, by the way. ;-)
But then again, no tienes que callarte, because you're giving me some good laugh. LOL!!
Keep on living in your imaginary world, if you want to. ^^