Prince William's speech

Nancy   Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:24 pm GMT
I recently saw Prince William being interviewed by the BBC with the regard to his expected enrollment at Sandhurst Military Academy. He said somthing like: "If I WAS admitted to the Academy I would expect to be treated the same as any other junior officer" (or something like that). I DID notice he said "If I was..." rather than "if I were..." which is the correct form when the second part of the statement (or the first part if the sentence is inverted) contains "would", "wouldn't", "could', "couldn't", etc... Now I know that in casual speech (as opposed to writing) that "If I was..." or "if he was..." is common in both American and British English. However, I would expect the future king (and someone who has attended Eton and Oxford) to use "If I were..." The only possible explanation is that he is trying to sound more down to earth and more like the ordinary citizens of the UK (for, surely, he must know when the subjunctive is to be employed).

I also noticed that he speaks kind of fast and sort of mumbles when he is being interviewed (I could barely make out what he was saying, much less determine whether or not he was using RP, which he must have been I'm assuming). Perhaps he is shy or uncomfortable speaking in front of cameras. However, I can understand why.

In any case, I think he is a very handsome and personable young man and, as a British subject, I would gladly accept him as my king and even vow my allegiance to him, if necessary. OK, so maybe I have what you call a "crush" on him, but doesn't EVERY red-blooded British girl (and many of the blue-blooded ones too)?
Rick Johnson   Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:15 pm GMT
Obviously he don't talk proper English like what one should.

I doubt the "I was" was done deliberately, I think it's quite commonplace in speech to make that particular mistake. However, if he interspersed the speech with words like "innit" and "geezer", that would be another matter entirely!

The only reason women find him attractive is because he's the first Royal in generations not to have some kind of visible congenital abnormality.
Damian in Scotland   Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:43 pm GMT
Why put Wills on some sort of pedestal? Just because he is who he is, and likely to turn into King William V some day, I don't see why he should be expected to speak "proper" and dot every i and cross every t verbally when 99% of his peers don't. I know he was speaking into the cameras (and the poor guy will have to get used to that big time) and probably he is a wee bit shy.....as his mother was when she was thrust into the whole Royal circus...with tragic results as it turned out.

Of course he will not be "allowed" to go all mega Estuary when he is in the limelight but I guess his age group (who will be leading the field in the life of this country anyway when he becomes Wills the Fifth) will have more sympathy with him if he spoke like that rather than adhere strictly to posh Establishment English...like wot his Grand Mama had to do. But thankfully posh EE is on its last legs I reckon.

If he mumbles and speaks fast, then he is in good company.....so do millions of his peers. The most difficult and unenviable job the guy will have to do will be to remain as "normal" as he can as a member of a highly dysfunctional family and at the same time trying to maintain a dignified stance in the whole Royal soap opera.

Don't let's make it even more difficult for the poor wee bloke by dissecting his verbal skills and their delivery.

William handsome? Erm.....not my type, to be honest. One big thing in his favour...he had the good sense to attend a Scottish university, which is more than I did. There have been times when I regret I selected Leeds rather than St Andrews....but not too many....only because St Andrews is much closer to home.
Kirk   Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:46 pm GMT
<<Now I know that in casual speech (as opposed to writing) that "If I was..." or "if he was..." is common in both American and British English. However, I would expect the future king (and someone who has attended Eton and Oxford) to use "If I were...">>

Why? Is royalty not expected to take place in language change like everyone else? Maybe they should go back and eschew those modern vowels they've been using and start speaking pre-Great Vowel Shift.
Travis   Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:37 am GMT
>>I recently saw Prince William being interviewed by the BBC with the regard to his expected enrollment at Sandhurst Military Academy. He said somthing like: "If I WAS admitted to the Academy I would expect to be treated the same as any other junior officer" (or something like that). I DID notice he said "If I was..." rather than "if I were..." which is the correct form when the second part of the statement (or the first part if the sentence is inverted) contains "would", "wouldn't", "could', "couldn't", etc... Now I know that in casual speech (as opposed to writing) that "If I was..." or "if he was..." is common in both American and British English.<<

Well, the matter is that most English English dialects have (at least mostly) lost the productive use of the subjunctive, which very many North American English dialects (such as mine) preserve, even in informal speech (even though its scope of usage may be narrower than such in formal speech and writing). Consequently, the use of "If I was ..." rather than "If I were ..." when expressing "if" with a *counterfactual* statement is something I generally notice when I hear it, and which, while perfectly understandable, still seems a bit "off" to me (not from a formal language perspective, but rather simply intuitively), even though such is the norm for English English today.

>>However, I would expect the future king (and someone who has attended Eton and Oxford) to use "If I were..." The only possible explanation is that he is trying to sound more down to earth and more like the ordinary citizens of the UK (for, surely, he must know when the subjunctive is to be employed).<<

Remember that RP, and in particular conservative RP, is going out of fashion, and being replaced by Estuary English or at least Estuary-influenced RP, and considering the age segment Prince William is in, it would not be surprising at all if he were to speak, say, Estuary-influenced RP at least.

>>In any case, I think he is a very handsome and personable young man and, as a British subject, I would gladly accept him as my king and even vow my allegiance to him, if necessary. OK, so maybe I have what you call a "crush" on him, but doesn't EVERY red-blooded British girl (and many of the blue-blooded ones too)? <<

/me rolls his eyes.
Jim   Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:58 am GMT
Interesting that nobody has picked this up yet. No, "If I was ..." is not correct but nor would "If I were ..." be. The correct form is "If I am ..." This is a statement about a future state of affairs not a counterfactual state of affairs.
Bubu   Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:41 am GMT
Jim,

"If I am..." would require the rest of the sentence to be modified. In it's current state, it would be incorrect.

"If I WAS/WERE admitted to the Academy I would expect to be treated the same as any other junior officer"

would become:

"If I am admitted to the Academy I will expect to be treated the same as any other junior officer"
Bubu   Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:42 am GMT
it's -> its
Travis   Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:04 am GMT
>>Interesting that nobody has picked this up yet. No, "If I was ..." is not correct but nor would "If I were ..." be. The correct form is "If I am ..." This is a statement about a future state of affairs not a counterfactual state of affairs.<<

The thing is that at least in the dialect here, "If I were ..." is what is invariably used, and I at least would perceive "If I am ..." as being with respect to whether someone *is* something at the present, *not* in the future, without any emphasis on counterfactuality or hypotheticality. I am speaking with respect to actual usage, not with respect to what prescriptivists may have specified. (On a related note, I remember that the formal usage of the subjunctive, both past and present, was never taught to me in school (or even mentioned, really), so hence I am just going by how it is used in the informal and formal registers in my dialect, and what I have picked up about its usage in the literary language over time outside of school.)
Jim   Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:45 am GMT
Bubu, yes, you're right. The whole sentence needs modification: it's incorrect.

Travis, yes, I'm talking about formal usage. After all, it was originally a threat about what should be said in propper upper class English. For all I care the prince might have said "If I gets me inta the Academy, y'know, I'm gunna wants ta be treate' like any ovva geezer, innit guv."
Damian in Scotland   Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:16 am GMT
>>In any case, I think he is a very handsome and personable young man and, as a British subject, I would gladly accept him as my king and even vow my allegiance to him, if necessary. OK, so maybe I have what you call a "crush" on him, but doesn't EVERY red-blooded British girl (and many of the blue-blooded ones too)? <<

/me rolls his eyes as well

How shallow can you get? Whatever..... anyway he's all part of the world's most upmarket soap opera however the way he ends up speaking...let's just be grateful that he doesn't speak the way his old man does....just watch this space....I pity the girl who does eventually marry him though.....joining THAT weird family!

I think it would be great when he does become King and delivers his annual Christmas Day speech in pure unadulterated Estuary...subjunctive or non subjunctive included.... that is the question..whether it is nobler in the Royal mind to do so or not, who cares. Let the guy speak whichever way he likes.....I bet Estuaryspeak is rife at Eton..... and Harrow ....and Millfield ....and Charterhouse and...wherever....I know it is at Fettes because I hear it. Tony Blur (ooops sorry..I mean Blair) went there and he lapses into Estuary when it suits.
Bubu   Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:08 am GMT
>Bubu, yes, you're right. The whole sentence needs modification: it's incorrect.<

That doesn't mean I see anything wrong with "If I WAS/WERE admitted to the Academy I would expect to be treated the same as any other junior officer" such that "were" and "was" are interchangeable.

The modification I suggested only applies if "If I am..." is employed.
Travis   Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:00 pm GMT
>>Bubu, yes, you're right. The whole sentence needs modification: it's incorrect.

Travis, yes, I'm talking about formal usage. After all, it was originally a threat about what should be said in propper upper class English. For all I care the prince might have said "If I gets me inta the Academy, y'know, I'm gunna wants ta be treate' like any ovva geezer, innit guv."<<

The main matter is that subjunctive usage in North American English, whether informal or formal, does not necessarily correspond to that in formal English English, even though in reality North American English is far more conservative with respect to the subjunctive than most *actual* English English. For example, in more formal language, I myself am quite comfortable with many *productive* subjunctive usages in moderately formal NAE which would sound quite archaic to most English English-speakers today, even if they don't quite follow what has been deemed to be "correct" to superformal English English, which I don't speak or know (or care) what is deemed to be "correct" in anyways.
Rick Johnson   Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:20 pm GMT
General South Eastern sentence structures have been used by the royals for years. Princess Dianna would reguarly drop words from sentences which at the time sounded odd to Northerners. I remember my mum commenting when Dianna once said "water came out the top" instead of "water came out of the top".
Adam   Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:49 pm GMT
""If I WAS admitted to the Academy I would expect to be treated the same as any other junior officer" (or something like that). I DID notice he said "If I was..." rather than "if I were..." "

As I've said on this forum just recently: "If I was" is perfectly okay and is not gramatically incorrect.