twiojrdyj znak w russkij jazyku

JakubikF   Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:21 pm GMT

It'll be short subject. I'd like to know how should we read "ъ" in different words like: объезд, подъезд etc. should we read those words in another way if there isn't "ъ". The point is I can't hear how that sign is used in speach, what clearly we can hear using e.g мягкий знак ”ь” (e.g. слушать instead of слушат).
Ed   Sun Nov 06, 2005 4:00 pm GMT
i'm not sure that letter exists in Russian. We have it In Bulgarian, though. It's a vowel.
Real Deal   Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:21 pm GMT
You have just split the words on two parts and read it like there is no ъ at all
POD EZD ( but fastly )
ob ezd
Just make a subtle pause there. Imagine there is no ъ letter
HEy I am not the teacher
Real Deal   Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:23 pm GMT
BTW the topic should be renamed
JakubikF   Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:09 pm GMT
Thanks deal. Well I agree that "russkom" instead of "russkij" is correcter (I've noticed my mistake to late) but I wrote "twiordyj znak..." beacause I'm from Poland and from my language point of view stranslation from cyrylic to latin letters looks in that way:) (I write like I hear - you know what I mean?)

All in all we can say that "ъ" is not needed in speach and in general in russian, isn't it?
suomalainen   Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:19 am GMT
'Tvjordyj znak' (a Finn would transliterate the word thus) was much more in use before "the Great October Revolution". If I am correct, a word ended either in a vowel or 'mjagkyj znak' (soft sign) or 'tvjordyj znak' (hard sign). Hard sign meant that the last consonant wasn´t palatalized. The reformation in orthography (one of the useful innovations of the Bolsheviks) omitted the hard sign from most places; it was left only where it was really needed: without the hard sign the 'b' in 'obezd´ would be palatalized according to the pronunciation rules of Russian, now the hard sign shows that it isn´t, instead there is like a syllabic boundary, as REAL DEAL teaches.
Linguist   Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:17 pm GMT
>>All in all we can say that "ъ" is not needed in speach and in general in russian, isn't it?

It's not right, if it exists, it means there s a need in it. Твёрдый знак effects the pronouciation thus it can distinguish two different words:
сесть - сЪесть
to sit down - to eat

Ъ is simply the way to to show that the consonant is hard and the next sound is "j", so it's very important in Russian
Zagorka   Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:57 pm GMT
Ja ne razumem ruski jezik.
Da li ga vi razumete?
Fala lepa.
JakubikF   Mon Nov 07, 2005 10:37 pm GMT
Linguist: thanks also for the answer. But I still can't understand what's the difference between сесть and съест if we read it as well "je" with the first one and "je" with the second one. Should we concentrate on с or з in съест? I mean, should c be hard like in зовуть or soft like in cecтрa or
that isn't the point?

Zagorka: In which language have you written this sentence? It isn't Russian, is it? I've understood everything although I'm sure it isn't Polish ;)
Frances   Mon Nov 07, 2005 11:36 pm GMT
JakubikF - Serbian or Croatian

"I don't understand the Russian Language"
"Do you understand it?"
"Many thanks"
Real Deal   Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:13 am GMT
I still can't understand what's the difference between сесть and съест


The difference in pronunciation is сесть you pronounce sest' - not doing any pauses in this word and s'est' you make long s and it sounds something like this ssest'
suomalainen   Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:11 am GMT
'to eat' is pronounced 'sjest´' (palatalized 's' as in 'suit': 's' 'and 'j' (=y) are pronounced at the same time).
'to sit down' is pronounced 's-jest´' ('s' is not palatalized, as in 'sad': 's' and 'j' (=y) are pronounced separately).
Unfortunately I don´t have Cyrillic alphabet on my machine.
Linguist   Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:31 pm GMT
I am native Russian speaker, so listen to me how to pronounce these words:

съесть [sjes't']
сесть [s'es't']

The difference is that in the first word you pronounce J (like ja german), and in second case you don't ponounce it. also in съесть first "c" should be hard sound, though many people make it soft now, but I teach you literal Russian ;)

p.s. I hope everypne knows that apostroph means palatalization
JakubikF   Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:31 pm GMT
soumalainen: I'm not sure if I can understand your explanation beacause you're trying to show me slavic pronounciation by english word. It's too complicated for me because I'm Polish. ;)

Luinguist. Does it mean we should use the sound of "z" in съесть like in word "zebra"(polish) or just don't read "je" sound in word сесть. That would be much siplier when I could hear(!) the pronounciation

PS. I'm listening to you! :) Have you got an e-mail?
Ed   Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:41 am GMT
I don't see why this is so complicated to understand.
съесть - syest'
сесть - sest'

BTW, I've never seen the letter ъ written in Russian.