Someone wrote to me:
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I wonder what you think about speaking. It's far more difficult to speak without mistakes than to write. Don't you think that a learner should try to speak (even with mistakes) from the beginning or they should try only to build sentences if they are 100% sure they are correct?
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The problem is that people rarely learn English in order to know English well.
They always have some goals and those usually involve speaking.
And people are impatient, they need instant gratification.
They cannot learn thoroughly from the beginning without speaking
and then after four years speak very well. They are too impatient.
I started speaking after two years of serious learning.
I didn't care to speak before a certain level of expertise.
I knew that I would be able to speak sooner or later
and that when I am finally able to speak it will be very well.
But again it is possible to speak correctly from the beginning.
If one is careful about what one learns, then one can distinguish between what one knows and what one doesn't know.
Then one chooses that which one knows.
> They cannot learn thoroughly from the beginning without speaking
> and then after four years speak very well. They are too impatient.
>
> I started speaking after two years of serious learning.
> I didn't care to speak before a certain level of expertise.
> I knew that I would be able to speak sooner or later
> and that when I am finally able to speak it will be very well.
Speaking is very, very motivating. I would encourage learners to speak English, but I would advise them to use simple English and minimize mistakes.
I started speaking English before I even started reading books in English. Before I started my SuperMemo collection. Not all my sounds were perfect.
The only input I had acquired was in the classroom (8 years of classes), through adventure games and watching CNN.
I was proficient enough to build relatively simple sentences with few mistakes. But it was not "speaking very well" with ZERO mistakes.
Your case shows that it is possible to start speaking "too soon",
and without permanent damage at the same time.
Your case shows that learners can start to speak early
without condemning themselves to irreparably bad English.
But AWARENESS is crucial.
You say that you could build simple sentences.
This implies that you had a perception for what is simple in English.
When I was making my first steps in talking to native speakers, I didn't like making mistakes or stuttering when I tried to say a complicated sentence. So I took the decision to use a number of simple structures which I had a working knowledge of. For example, I had only a little intuition regarding the usage of the present perfect tense. So I stopped using it entirely, except for some fixed phrases like "I have never...", "Have you ever...".
I was introducing the present perfect gradually. Through listening to English and (later) reading books, I was getting more and more confident in using the present perfect in other contexts.
You mentioned my "perception of what is simple in English". I don't think I had a special perception. What I could use fluently, I considered simple.
> Your case shows that learners can start to speak early
> without condemning themselves to irreparably bad English.
"Speak early"... I had 8 years of classes under my belt (they surely had been a source of mostly correct sentences). Also many adventure games (very useful English, practically only dialogue).
Perhaps your case does not show that people can speak early without harm.
People should speak if they can build at least simple sentences without mistakes. It is usually easy to tell if a person is ready for speaking by listening to their spoken English.
There is a critical mass of input which permits a learner to start speaking English. If this critical mass has not been acquired, the advice is: shut up and get more input. Usually, I'd think this would mean "read in English", as listening will probably be too challenging for people who can't build even simple sentences.
One may have absorbed enough input to build correct sentences from the grammatical point of view and yet still be unable to speak because of pronunciation.
In other words, your simple-English competence may be enough to let you start speaking, but don't forget about your pronunciation competence.
There are factors to consider when starting to speak English.
There is only one factor when considering starting to write English.
In other words, your simple-English competence may be enough to let you start speaking, but don't forget about your pronunciation competence.
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Exactly. I was going to mention this, but you beat me to the punch. So there are two components that a learner needs to start speaking in English correctly: a good knowledge of pronunciation AND a critical mass of input.
But I'd like to add this: I was talking to native speakers in high school when I still didn't have a perfect knowledge of pronunciation (I could pronounce most English sounds correctly, but I knew the wrong transcription of some words). I formed some bad habits, but nothing that couldn't be erased later.
If there aren't too many bad habits, they can be erased. Each of my bad habits lasted only as long as I was unaware of it. With proper corrections (English pals, good teachers), and with proper reaction to those corrections (e.g. appending a relevant item to SuperMemo), bad habits can be eliminated.
Here is a relevant message from my email archive:
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Commenting on emerging English speakers. I think it is all right to speak
(communicate) any which way one can, regardless of accent and grammatical
errors.
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You write that it as ALL RIGHT to speak even when one makes mistakes.
Without passing any judgements, I wish to make a point concerning speaking with mistakes.
The more you speak with mistakes, the more you reinforce those mistakes.
By constant repetition, your mistakes become your habit.
The side effect of speaking "in any way one can",
is that one's English can become damaged for life.
The mistakes that one makes at the beginning of learning will stay.
It can be difficult to remove those mistakes later.
As one speaks, one damages one's English.
An alternative is to refrain from speaking at the beginning
for the sake of future competence.
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The primary purpose of learning a language (including one's own) is
to communicate.
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Yes.
And my point is that for the sake of communication,
it is better not to make mistakes.
This is not a strict claim, I don't mean NO MISTAKES.
I mean the negation of such a number of mistakes that communication is made difficult.
I often see people having problems with communication
because they make too many mistakes,
or because the quality of their mistakes is such as to impede communication.
Such people don't care about their mistakes because
they only care about communication.
But they don't realize that their mistakes are preventing communication.
I'd like to ask you a question about something you wrote in the first message of this topic:
>>>
But again it is possible to speak correctly from the beginning.
If one is careful about what one learns, then one can distinguish between what one knows and what one doesn't know.
Then one chooses that which one knows.
>>>
What did you mean by "being careful about what one learns"?
>>>
But again it is possible to speak correctly from the beginning.
If one is careful about what one learns, then one can distinguish between what one knows and what one doesn't know.
Then one chooses that which one knows.
>>>
I'll try to write more about it.
When you learn consciously, when you are a master of your learning process, then you know what you know.
When you have a mess in your head, and when you generate an English sentence on the basis of your messy knowledge, then you cannot be certain if the sentence is correct. In other words, you cannot trust what you find in your head.
But when you are careful in your learning process, you are clear in your mind about your own competence. You know some things for certain and you are undecided about some other things. Then you can choose those things that you are certain that they are correct.
For example, if you put all your knowledge into a SuperMemo collection, then you can easily distinguish between what you know and what you don't know. The rule is simple then: if you can find it in your SM colleciton, then it is correct; and if you cannot find it, then it is possibly incorrect and you avoid it.
Are there any other ways in which I can be careful about my learning process -- other than appending everything to SuperMemo (which is usually not practical)?
I'm still not clear on what you mean by "having a mess in one's head". Could you possibly mean "a mixture of correct and incorrect sentences"? For example, if you go to an English course, you listen to both your teacher and other students speaking. The language of the teacher will be correct. The language of the students will often be incorrect.
So you fill your brain with both correct and incorrect sentences. When you try to produce your own sentences based on what you heard in class, you will sometimes be wrong. Is this what you meant by "having a mess in one's head"?
When you have a mess in your head, you cannot trust what you find in your head. You want to express something - some words come to your mind and a sentence is forming - but you are not sure if the sentence is correct. You find answers within yourself, but they are sometimes bad answers.
There are two extremes for not having a mess in one's head:
(1) to know nothing,
(2) to know very much and every piece of knowledge is correct.
Normally, there is always some mess in one's head.
The opposite of "mess" is "competence".
The idea is to have enough 'competence' to be able to produce correct sentences in spite of having 'mess'.
I personally support the idea that we should try to speak even though we can't be very sure of the correctness. Speaking is far more than grammer. Pronunciation is another aspect. Our English will be difficult to understand if it is pronounced badly despite the correct grammar. Therefore, we shall practise to speak without worrying too much.
You guys sound like the listning and speaking police. Have ever thought about the fact that different brain and behaviours foster different learning styles? Some people are visual, others audible, and some are a; just to mention a few. What was the most natural and easiest way in your mother tongue? Also, consider the fact that critical thinking and the exchange of ideas is most productive in a group discussion. Not to mention some of the research that is showing an intuitive component to learning, which is promoted in a dialogical setting.
Saturday, November 24, 2001, 21:19 GMT