Pronunciaiton of NG

SagaSon   Sunday, July 06, 2003, 22:35 GMT
English NG sounds so much with Portuguese N/M that if Heading is like Hedin em Portuguese, no its knot, but what's the difference?? Sometimes G seems to be pronounced, as in King
Jim   Monday, July 07, 2003, 00:27 GMT
Let's write the "ng" as in "king" as /N/.
Let's write the "n" as in "kin" as /n/.
Let's write the "m" as in "dim" as /m/.
Let's write the "g" as in "peg" as /g/.

In Engish /N/ is a completely different sound to /n/ or /m/. It's not /ng/, i.e. /n/ plus /g/. Have a look at the IPA chart*, you'll see that /N/ is in the "Velar" column. That's because it's produced in a different part of the mouth than /m/ and /n/.

Be careful, sometimes "ng" repersents /Ng/ not just /N/, e.g. "singer" is pronounced /siN../ but "finger" is pronounced /fiNg../. /../ is the central vowel the IPA uses schwa to repersent.

SagaSon   Monday, July 07, 2003, 01:26 GMT
Well, Portuguese language doesn't have N/M as ending consonant, when it comes after a vowel and before a consonant, it's a nasalizer, so M/N sounds the same at the end of a word. It's closer to English NG, but not the same.

Well, Portuguese ending N/M is the same ending M/N of French.
Ryan   Monday, July 07, 2003, 05:30 GMT
This difference is sounds was based on an affectation in Southern England that for some reason did not spread to all words like finger. Anywhere north of Birmingham in the UK, it is still perfectly acceptable to use the /NG/ sound in "singer." Birmingham in the UK is actually pronounced with this sound as Birmin-gum by natives, but not in the standard BBC accent, which will pronounce the /NG/ as /N/.

Simon   Monday, July 07, 2003, 07:00 GMT
ng is to G, what n is to D and m is to B. Simple as that.
queen   Monday, July 07, 2003, 13:40 GMT
Sorry, I haven't understood anything about the NG sound .
Ryan   Tuesday, July 08, 2003, 01:48 GMT
queen, for a word like "finger" that uses the /NG/ sound, it is easier. Just say the syllable "fing" + "er" and then say them fast together and you will make that sound. The /N/ sound that Jim describes, though, is more difficult. It involves kind of a "back of the throat" g sound between the "sin" and "er" syllables. You would have to hear it pronounced on tape to understand its nature better.

mjd   Tuesday, July 08, 2003, 22:23 GMT

The sounds between the nasal Portuguese ending of n/m and ng in English are similar, but I'd say the 'g' is more pronounced in English because they're not as swallowed as in Portuguese.

If I were to explain the pronunciation of 'Camões' to a bunch of English speakers, I'd write out "Cah-moingsh." While the two sounds are not identical, it's the best way to illustrate this unique Portuguese sound to an English speaker.
Ashley   Tuesday, July 08, 2003, 22:26 GMT
I don't understand what you mean.........
mjd   Tuesday, July 08, 2003, 22:27 GMT
It's very difficult to explain this sound through writing.
Jim   Wednesday, July 09, 2003, 00:27 GMT
Thanx Simon, clear as mud ...

... but he's right ...

the pair /m/ & /b/ are produced in the front of the mouth: the lips,
the pair /n/ & /d/ are produced a bit further back: just behind the teeth, and
the pair /N/ & /g/ are produced in the back of the mouth.

(Remember /N/ stands for the "ng" of "sing" in dialects not north of Birmingham.)

The difference is that /b/, /d/ and /g/ are voiced stops and /m/, /n/ and /N/ are nasal.

Simon could equally have "ng is to K, what n is to T and m is to P. Simple as that."

Have a look at the chart.
Simon   Wednesday, July 09, 2003, 08:38 GMT
the Italian/French/Spanish/Portuguese GN/Ñ/NH has the same relationship to /j/ (i.e. the first sound in 'yes').

Where do R and L sit in the scheme of things? Close to D/T?
Nora   Wednesday, July 09, 2003, 11:08 GMT
Sorry for disturb but is Europa forum dead. Yesterday only me and ats were there. It's your doubt to come back.
Simon   Wednesday, July 09, 2003, 11:24 GMT
Europa will live if you want it to.
Nora   Wednesday, July 09, 2003, 11:26 GMT
there is only my name. have you seen it? Simon have you heard about pal talk.