"Mixed Languages"

Kuduk   Saturday, December 13, 2003, 09:08 GMT
Hello! I am wondering at how many languages are "mixed" as much as English is with French?

Can anyone think of other languages that have a lot of mixing?

Here are the language I think are mixed and why:

English: Anglo-Frisian/Old Norse mixed with Norman French
Romanian: Latin mixed with Bulgarian, Hungarian, Turkish and Greek

These language I think are mixed with modern English:

Danish, Norwegian, French, Swedish, German, Welsh, Gaelic, Irish and Dutch.

I am a person who is starting to be interested in the languages of JRR Tolkien. I found a website that says "Westron" is a "mixed language" and I like to talk about that.

P.S. Does anyone know what "Kuduk" means?
P.S.S. Does anyone know the real names of the four hobbits in The Lord of the Rings?
Clark   Sunday, December 14, 2003, 03:55 GMT
Well this has nothing really to do with what you are talking about, but I just thought of a rather narrow-minded approach to something;

Westron is a "Mixed Language" like you said, and Tolkien used English for the Westron language in his books. The narrow minded approach I was thinking of is that since English has so much French vocabulary, then the Elves spoke French as Westron was very heavily influenced by the Elves.

Yes, yes, very narrow minded and even stupid. For one, the Elves' language is more akin to Finnish that french. Two, to compare the two languages (English/Westron? in this way is just dumb to do so. Oh well, I still thought it was a bit humorous :-)
Californian   Sunday, December 14, 2003, 06:12 GMT
Hobbits names:
Frodo: Frodo Baggins (son of Drogo)
Sam: Samwise Gamgee (son of Hamfast)
Pippin: Peregrin Took
Merry: Meriadoc Brandybuck

Kuduk   Sunday, December 14, 2003, 06:27 GMT
No, the real names of the Hobbits in Westron are:

Maura = Frodo
Ban = Sam
Razar = Merry
Kali = Pippin

Do you know what "Kuduk" means?
Clark   Sunday, December 14, 2003, 07:52 GMT
Well Hobbit (I mean, Kuduk in Westron :-) As a reply to mixed languages:

English (Anglo-Frisian ['Ancient' Dutch] with French and Latin)
As for Romanian, I am not sure as to how much of the vocabulary is actually non-Latin in origin.

European languages are my speciality, so I cannot say much for the non-European languages. With that, English is the only language with an historical past of being a mixed language. And as you say, Kuduk/Hobbit, many modern languages are being influenced by English. The main ones as I see it are:

Tremmert   Sunday, December 14, 2003, 12:26 GMT
I think all modern languages are picking up English.
Tarek   Sunday, December 14, 2003, 14:18 GMT
"I think all modern languages are picking up English."

I think it is more temporary fashion and I really doubt if something of this English stuff will have a lasting effect, at least not in common language.
Clark   Sunday, December 14, 2003, 20:26 GMT
Tarek, if you mean that English words will somehow go away when English does, you are wrong unless the people who speak the language make a conscience decision to stop using English words in their language (however, English will be around for a long time, I believe). I most peoples' languages, there are words from other languages, and you might not even realise it. "Camp" is an English word, right? No; it was borrowed from Latin during the Anglo-Saxon times after Chirstianity had come to the Pagan Germanic tribes.
Templar   Sunday, December 14, 2003, 21:46 GMT
Well, it depends on how xenophobic the country and its people are. For example, there are some countries (i.e: France - please, correct me if I'm wrong) where there are laws forbiding the use of foreign words. I believe the English is widely used in TI jargon, for example, at least here in Brazil. Here we call the mouse a mouse, but in Portugal they translate the word, so, mouse there is "rato". It makes us more flexible to accept English words while the portuguese people seldom use English words. I'm an exception in Brazil, I avoid using English words when I can use a Portuguese word instead, but most of people don't do it. So, I conclude: the more xenophobic one is, the rarer one uses foreign words. Remember that languages borrow and re-borrow words and it's just a matter of fashion and necessity.
Clark   Sunday, December 14, 2003, 23:54 GMT
Yeah, languages borrow and reborrow all the time! "Budget" is an English word that woas borrowed from Norman French. Now, the French have borrowed this word for modern French.

But I do not think that there are many European languages like English in terms of the amount of borrowings that have taken place. I think that if this question were to be asked in 500 year's time, we might find that Danish, French, German, have all incorporated so much English into their vocabularies that 60% of the vocabularies are now English in origin.
Templar   Monday, December 15, 2003, 00:26 GMT
Just a note: I'm not xenophobic. I just don't use foreign words when there's a synonym available in my mother-tongue, but just as I've said, there are countries that forbid the use of foreign words (It's xenophobia).

I just don't like when one speaks so many english words that it would be better if he had spoken the whole sentence in English. I hear it constantly because I work in IT area. They even conjugate english verbs using Portuguese conjugation. Just an example:
The server restarted at 09:00. (Translation)
Most of people would say:
O server restartou às 09:00. (Incorrect)
O servidor reiniciou às 09:00. (Correct and 100% Portuguse).
Why the person doesn't use the correct words in his/her mother-tongue?
Templar   Monday, December 15, 2003, 00:27 GMT
typo: xenophobe instead of xenophobic
Clark   Monday, December 15, 2003, 02:22 GMT
Templar, I agree with you; I hate it when people speak in a language and use so many English words! In my area, I hear so much Spanglish I just want to go crazy! And I have also heard "Portuglish" and Chinglish here as well.

However, one of my favourite things about language is how minority languages begin to adopt numerous words from the main language in the certain area. The best example for me is the PA Germans. The language today is full of English words that have their own PA German twist to them. I find this intermixing so interesting. But when it comes to languages spoken in a country, and the people start to use foreign words, I really dislike that!

It is like in French, "Tu vas m'e-mailer le budget ce week-end ?" I have heard french people use "e-mailer" as a regular "-er" verb!

Tu vas m'e-mailer le budget ce week-end (correct; but with too much English!).
Tu vas m'envoyer le budget cette fin de semaine (correct French taking from Parisian and Québecois).

The second sentence is a bit misleading though, as I am not quite sure how to say "e-mail the budget" using the more correct French verb "to send" in this case.
Simon   Monday, December 15, 2003, 08:26 GMT
Japanese (ie. Chinese)

I don't think the Celtic Brythonic languages had a vocabulary impact. Furthermore, grammar seems mostly Germanic/Latin. Yet, I wonder if anyone's done a study of native speaker phonemes in the Latin/Germanic/Celtic languages and analysed the set of English phonemes in relation to the others. Particularly English spoken as a native language in Europe, i.e. in the United Kingdom and Ireland.

We have often discussed here how losing your accent takes a long time and can be impossible beyond childhood for some people. Therefore, it would seem likely that if a language is implanted into the area of speakers of another language, one of the elements that should stay the longest would be "accent". Indeed, you find Welsh native speakers speak English English with the changes of tone you get in Welsh. Belgian French (based on Brussels French) has stress, in a way that French French doesn't. The stereoptypical New York mafioso speaks with a staccato quality reminiscent of the way some Italians talk.

Simon   Monday, December 15, 2003, 08:27 GMT

Topic 1: Japan

Topic 2: English