Second Civil War

gair   Monday, March 08, 2004, 07:24 GMT
Simon   Monday, March 08, 2004, 10:10 GMT
These are the kind of morons who give our country a bad name. My England is not a green unpleasant land full of white people, it's a vibrant diverse modern nation, just with the realisation that Scotland and Wales are going their own seperate ways. Britain these days means England, so why not say England if that's what you mean.
Adam   Monday, March 08, 2004, 10:22 GMT
Britain does NOT just mean England. The Scots and Welsh but we offended if someone said that Britain is England.
Adam   Monday, March 08, 2004, 10:24 GMT
I meant to say that the Scots and Welsh would be offended if someone said that England is Britain. Foreigners, especially Americans, think that Britain is synonymous with England, but that makes the Scots and Welsh angry because their countries are also in Britain.
Adam   Monday, March 08, 2004, 10:28 GMT
But we shouldn't let illegal immigrants come into this country. We are seen as a soft touch by most other countries, who take a far tougher stance on immigrants who want to go into their countries. And a lot of immigrants who come into this country, even illegal immigrants, are given better houses and flats than people who were born here and have worked here all their lives. But some of these immigrants are only here for 5 minutes and most of them are given better houses than us! It's no wonder that they flock here in their thousands rather than going to some other European country.
Simon   Monday, March 08, 2004, 10:31 GMT
Look, your sentimental thoughts of what words mean is all very well and good but to be a nation you have to do things together. Other than on a defense level and Scots working in London, Scotland is separate and has separate/devolved institutions for everything. Wales and Northern Ireland are not far behind. Often when something has the label British, its area of competency does not extend beyond England.

I don't mind UK being together or split up. What I don't like is when we are talking about England is that people decide they don't like the word England and use Britain when they mean England.

Sorry I am hungover.
Simon   Monday, March 08, 2004, 10:34 GMT
What makes the Scots and Welsh angry is people ignoring them. If you only talk about England but call it Britain that is no better. In fact it is worse.
Adam   Monday, March 08, 2004, 10:36 GMT
Scotland is still a part of the UK. It is not a seperate nation. Their Prime Minister is Tony Blair. It is a part of the UK in the same way that California is a part of the US. Most Scots wish to remain as part of the UK. Scotland is not seperate from the UK.

When something is given the label "British", it means "England, Scotland and Wales." NOT just England. But many foreigners think that Britain is just England and that England/Britain rules Scotland and Wales, which is not the case. If people are talking about just England they should say England. But many people say "Britain" when they mean "England", which angers the elsh and Scots.
Adam   Monday, March 08, 2004, 10:37 GMT
Americans wouldn't like it if someone called their nation "California" rather than the "United States."
Adam   Monday, March 08, 2004, 10:45 GMT
I know someone from Italy who used to think that Edinburgh was in England. He must have thought that Scotland was in England. Lots of foreigners now that Scotland is in britain, but they also think that England is Britain and that Scotland is in England, like an English county.
Simon   Monday, March 08, 2004, 13:33 GMT
No, Adam you've got it wrong. Yes, Tony Blair is technically the Prime Minister but that refers to his senior position in the British State. In many many aspects Scotland is not active in the British state, so Tony Blair is far less the PM of Scotland than of England.

No, when people use the word British it very often just refers to England.

Scotland has its own newspapers, legal system, football association (plus premiership and league). There is a church of Scotland etc.

True, Scotland is still technically UK but to lump it in with "Britain" is kidding yourself. When you refer to Britain, the realities of which you speak are invariably confined to England and to a lesser extent Wales.

In the US, you have the federal level and the state level. This is not the same as UK, where you had an absorption of Scotland into England, called it Great Britain and allowed Scotland to retain some differences (i.e. legal system) and which is now being granted more and more autonomy. It would be similar if California had state instiutions etc. and most of the others didn't and existed in name only.

Ask a bunch of people living in England to name a city in Northern Britain and they'd probably say Manchester or Sheffield, both of which are below the British halfway line. What they mean is Northern England.

Have a look at this and see just how strong a Scottish sense of nationhood is.
William Wallace   Monday, March 08, 2004, 15:49 GMT
Adam   Monday, March 08, 2004, 15:54 GMT
Scotland is an active member in Britain. It is a part of Britain fair and square. Does it matter that it has certain laws of its own and its own legal system? Each state in the US has its own laws and legal system.
Adam   Monday, March 08, 2004, 15:59 GMT
If people in England said that Manchester is a city in Northern Britain rather than Northern England then they are showing the arrogance that the English are renowned for in these islands. When talking about Britain you are talking about Britain, NOT England. That's just arrogance. Scotland has never been absorbed into England. It has never been a part of England. It isn't even ruled by England. England just happens to be a part of the same Union that Scotland joined voluntarily. Most people in Northern England do not say that Manchester is in Northern Britain, because it ISN'T in Northern britain. Saying that Manchester is in Northern Britain would make most Scots angry, as it must come as a shock to them that cities like Inverness and Aberdeen aren't in Northern Britain.

Scotland is as much pat of the UK as England, Wales and Northern Ireland are.
Adam   Monday, March 08, 2004, 16:03 GMT
The UK might not be a federal nation, but Scotland is a component part of the UK exactly in the same way that california is a component part of the US. Each state has its own laws and legal systems, but they are still controlled under the Federal Government in Washington DC. Scotland has irs own laws and legal systems, but it has ALWAYS had its own laws and legal sytems ever since it joined the Union in 1707. It's still run under the central government at Westminster.

And I think it's unfair that Scotland has it's own regional Parliament, Wales has its own regional Assembly, but England doesn't have its own regional Parliaments for each of its 8 regions.