Spelling Reform Thread

''We could do that but the problem is that it would look too much like an "m". Think of the trouble that might be caused if you get your "m"s and "wh"s mixed up.''

''What I think would work better is an upside down "m". An upside down "m" looks a bit like a "w" and /W/ sounds a bit or exactly (depending on your accent) like a /w/. If you get your "w"s and "wh"s mixed up things aren't going to be so troublesome.''

Yeah, I wouldn't be so good if you got your ''wh's'' and your ''m's'' mixed up.

So, yeah, ''&#623'' upside down ''m'' would probably be a better letter for [W].

I was thinking the name ''whiskey'' would be good because that's what ''w'' is called in the NATO alphabet.

Other good letters to add would probably be,

eth
thorn þ ð
ash
schwa-arrest, about, again
ø-[o:]-awkward, awful, awe
"u" with a line through the middle'' for [u] - ''book'', ''took'', ''shook'', ''wood'', ''pull'', ''full'', ''look'', ''cook'', ''put'', ''hook'', ''should''.
š-shine, ship, fish, station, nation
ž-genre, vision, beige, rouge, collage, measure.
And it would perhaps be good to replace ''c'', ''like Inglish spelings doing'' with ''ç''. ''church'' becomes ''çurç'' and ''check'' and ''witch'' become ''çek'' and ''wiç''.

Jim, how do the spellings ''okwurd'' and ''økwərd'' compare? I'm using the letter ''ø'' for [o:] and schwa for [..]?

''There aren't enough graphemes to represent my accent. In fact there aren't enough to represent most accents.''

So, my system doesn't have enough graphemes to represent all of the phonemes and distinctions on Fonemes' chart http://p081.ezboard.com/feuropa2frm40.showMessage?topicID=45.topic. Does yours? Does your system include all of the phonemes and distinctions listed on Fonemes' chart ''except for [C]''? It seems like it would make a mess trying to represent the phonemes on Fonemes' chart with only 26 letters.

Should a decent spelling reform include the phonemes only that are on Tom's chart or should it include all of the phonemes on Fonemes' chart http://p081.ezboard.com/feuropa2frm40.showMessage?topicID=45.topic ? I'd say it should only include the phonemes on Tom's chart. It would work for most people if it included only the phonemes on Tom's chart ''ignoring things like [W].'' ''when''=wen

If you use a phoneme that's not on Tom's chart then your accent is nonstandard.

Paul,

The verb and adjective spelt "perfect" is a minimal pair of /e:(r)/ & /..(r)/.

Inglish Speling,

It was just a guess that you live in the western half of the USA. It was nothing to do with your choice of "ae" for /ei/. It's not a good choice but it doesn't say "western USA" to me. Is it "global"? Yeah, it's "global" in the sence that it's a bad choice everywhere ... except, maybe, in Scotland.

I thought you lived there because you're merging /a:/ and /o:/ (as in "ah" and "awe"). As far as I know this is more common in the western half of the USA. It doesn't occur over the entire country and is doesn't occur outside of North America. Therefore spelling /a:/ and /o:/ the same is a very bad idea.

Okay, you're still using 26 letters but it's still a different 26. You've taken three away and added three more. If I did the same, then I'm sure I could make a few improvements to my system too. I wonder, though, what you'd suggest if you were only permitted to use the 26 we've got.

You're quick to tell us how things are pronounced. You tell us that "yeah", "tour", "cure" and "pure" are pronounced /je/, /to:r/, /kje:r/ and /pje:r/. Well, here's a little correction: this is how they're pronounced by you. You're not the only English speaker nor am I but here's how they're pronounced by me (and may others): /je../, /tu../, /kju../ and /pju../.

In my system:

"ea" = /e../
"ua" = /e:/
"eea" = /i../

But I haven't considered /u../ yet (I only found out about it now).

As for "karate", "hors doeuvre", etc. I think that the should be spelt according to how they're supposed to be pronounced not according to the way most English speakers mispronounce them. Take "karate", for example, why to do think that we mispronounce it as /k..ra:ti:/? It's becuase we've wrongly applied the rules of English spelling to a romanisation that uses different rules. Perhaps foreign words are better left as they are.

So, does your system spell ''karate'' and ''hors doeuvre'' as ''kurute'' and ''orduavrh'' [o:rde:vR] because that's how there supposed to be pronounced.

What my system does, unlike yours, is that it respells words according to how most of us actually say them not how the dictionary says they're pronounced or how they used to be pronounced or anything like that.


For example, there's the words ''hire'' and ''higher'' and also ''lyre'' and ''liar''. Some dictionary's list the pronunciation of ''hire'' as [hair] and ''higher'' as [hai-..r] and similarly they list the pronunciation of ''lyre'' as [lair] and the pronunciation of ''liar'' as ''[lai-..r]''.

And also there's ''flower'' and ''flour''. A few dictionary's list the pronunciation of ''flower'' as [flau-..r] and the pronunciation of ''flour'' as [flaur].

In reality ''hire/higher'', ''lyre/liar'', and ''flower/flour'' are pronounced the same. No one pronounce ''hire'', ''lyre'' and ''flour'' as [hair], [lair] and [flaur]. They're pronounced as [hai-..r], [lai-..r] and [flau-..r]. The dictionary is wrong.

I spell them how people actually say them,

flower/flour-flouwur
hire/higher-hieyur
liar/lyre-lieyur

''There aren't enough graphemes to represent my accent. In fact there aren't enough to represent most accents.''

So, my system doesn't have enough graphemes to represent all of the phonemes and distinctions on Fonemes' chart http://p081.ezboard.com/feuropa2frm40.showMessage?topicID=45.topic. Does yours? Does your system include all of the phonemes and distinctions listed on Fonemes' chart ''except for [C]''? It seems like it would make a mess trying to represent the phonemes on Fonemes' chart with only 26 letters.

Should a decent spelling reform include the phonemes only that are on Tom's chart or should it include all of the phonemes on Fonemes' chart http://p081.ezboard.com/feuropa2frm40.showMessage?topicID=45.topic ? I'd say it should only include the phonemes on Tom's chart. It would work for most people if it included only the phonemes on Tom's chart ''ignoring things like [W].'' ''when''=wen not ''when'' or ''hwen'' or anything like that.

Jim, If you use a phoneme that's not on Tom's chart then your accent is nonstandard.

''is is to say nothing of all those more obscure distinctions we've been mentioning.'' What more obscure distinctions are you talking about?

Yeah, I'm wondering what kind of obscure distinctions you're talking about.

List of phonemes for spelling reformers, Which of these phonemes are included in your system and which of these phonemes are not included in your system?

Spelling reformers,

List of phonemes.

Consonants

[b]-bag
[tS]-chip
[d]-dog
[f]-frog
[g]-get
[h]-heat
[j]-yes
[dZ]-jump
[k]-cat
[l]-light
[m]-might
[n]-night
[o]-open
[p]-party
[r]-red, car
[s]-snake, bass
[S]-sharp, fish
[t]-toast, tiger
[th]-think, thin
[TH]-there, that
[v]-van, verb
[w]-weed, why
[z]-zoo
[Z]-beige, vision

Vowels

[@]-cat, calf, half, ant, aunt, bag
[e]-set, get, ten, fence
[i]-sit
[a:]-hot, caught, father
[^]-cup
[u]-put
[..]-arrest, soda
[ei]-say
[ai]-sigh
[i:] seed, greet, leak
[u:] food, grew, new, shoe, suit
[ju:] mute, beautiful
[a:] hot, father, caught
[i:] seed, greet, leak
[u:] food, grew, new, shoe, suit
[i{:}] happy, money, body, monkey
[Ou]-so
[oi]-coin
[au]-mount
[o:]-saw
[e:(r)]-burglar, dirt, hurt
[e..]-yeah
[i..]-idea
[u..(r)]-cure, pure, tour
[o]-pot, hot, stomp
[.] ''syllabic consonants'' [.l] and [.n]. ''bitten'', ''little''.

Phonemes that don't exist in most dialects but exist in some.

[W]-whale, what, when- ''used by those who distinguish ''whine/wine''
[A]-made, daze, pane, mane, ate= ''A monophthong used by some Northern Irish people that distinguish these words from ''maid'', ''days'', ''pain'', ''main'' and ''eight''.
[O]-toe, sole, nose, groan=A ''A monophthong used by people from Liverpool people that distinguish these words from ''tow'', ''soul'', ''knows'' and ''grown''.
[E]-tenner ''used by some Northern Irish people that distinguish this word from ''tenor'' by using a longer vowel.''
[J]-canyon, lasagna, piñata ''Palatal nasal sound'' used by some people, distinguished by some people from the ''ni'' in ''opinion'', ''companion'' and ''onion'' [nj].
[@:]-mad, sad, bad ''used by some Southern Englishmen that don't rhyme these words with ''lad'' and ''pad''.
[i..] ''meat'', ''read'', ''real'', ''sea'' [distinguished in some parts of Scotland and the British Isles from the vowel in ''meet'', ''reed'', ''reel'' and ''sea''.]
[I]-libel ''A diphthong used by some Scots that don't rhyme this word with bible.
[ŭ]-book ''A vowel used by some Scots that use a different vowel in ''book'' than in ''foot''.
[ö]-lose ''A vowel used by some Scots that use a different vowel in ''lose'' than the vowel in ''moos'' and ''loose''. [ö]'s IPA symbol is [o].
[ü]-loose ''A vowel used by some Scots that use a different vowel in ''loose'' than in ''lose''.
[U] ''loumie'', ''soup'', ''coup'', ''group'', ''through'', ''coupon'. [Distinguished by some Scots by the vowel sound in ''roomy'', ''coo'', ''hoop'' and ''threw''.]




'loumie'', ''soup'', ''coup'', ''group'', ''through'', ''coupon''. [Distinguished by some Scots by the vowel sound in ''roomy'', ''coo'', ''hoop'' and ''threw''.]

More information on those three vowels [ŭ], [ö], [ü].
http://www.uni-mainz.de/FB/Philologie-II/fb1413/roesel/seminar0203/regional_varieties/Scotland.htm


Other phonemes that some people may use but most people don't.

[K]-loch
[n:]-contretemps ''nasal vowels''
[L]-Llwyd ''Welsh voiceless ''l''
[y]-rue [IPA symbol]
[ø]-foehn [IPA symbol]
[Y]-guidwillie [IPA symbol]
[a]-a la ''pronounced [a-la]''
[j:]-digne [''indicates that during the articulation of the preceding consonant the tongue has substantially the position it has for the articulation of the \y\ of yard, as in digne [dEnj:] Thus [j:] does not itself represent a sound but rather modifies the preceding symbol.]
[R]-rue, rouge ''voiced uvular fricative''
[r:]-perro ''tapped ''r'' - the ''alveolar flap''.

Jim, I'm still wondering if this is true, I heard somewhere some thread that you use ''dd'' and ''ddd'' for [TH] and you didn't know of any word that needed ''ddd''. Also, does your system use ''ear'' for [e:r] and ''earr'' for [i..{r}] like I heard somewhere in this thread?

Example,

Did you hear what they were saying. Becomes= ''Did yu hearr whut thay wear saying.''

I think is a spelling reform is urgent. I can't believe how little I knew about the English language. I hadn't realised how prevalent the schwas vowel is and confused with other vowels. Please, for my sake do hurry.

Fonemes, I think Jim has all of the phonemes on your chart in his system. But, maibee iem rong if I hav Jim'z sistym riet which iem not shur if I doo or not. Jim, doo Ie hav yor sistym riet?

Juan, a spelling reform that contained only the phonemes listed on Tom's chart or a spelling reform that includes all of the phonemes on fonemes' chart. Mine is a spelling reform that doesn't contain any phonemes not on tom's chart.

Jim and Fonemes, so there are four nasal consonants in English in some accents, [m], [n], [N] and [J]. Does your system contain all four of them, perhaps as ''m'', ''n'', ''ng'' and ''nh'' for [J] and does your system contain all the other phonemes on fonemes chart. Are [n:] and [j:] phonemes?

''Okay, you're still using 26 letters but it's still a different 26. You've taken three away and added three more. If I did the same, then I'm sure I could make a few improvements to my system too. I wonder, though, what you'd suggest if you were only permitted to use the 26 we've got.''

So, you think you could make improvements to your system if you replaced ''c'', ''q'' and ''x'' with ''ç'', ''þ'', and ''ð''. ''chee'', ''thorn'', and ''eth''. I'm also proposing the name ''chee'' for ''ç''. ''church'' becomes ''çurç''.

Isn't it kind of difficult to come up with a sentence using all of the phonemes, plus [n:] and [j:] on fonemes' chart. And then seeing how it comes out in your system. What do you think?

Mi speling ruform prupoezul kuntainz ol uv thu foeneemz on ''Fonemes' chart. If ue doen't think soe then wie.

Inglish spelings and Jim's systems do not contain all of the phonemes on Fonemes' chart.