"Did you see it?" | Antimoon Forum

Suppose I was a teacher who gave his students a homework assignment to watch a program on TV on a specific day. The program is a series and this particular part of the series will be aired only on that day.

It is now the next class. Do you think I can ask my students "Have you seen the program?".

"Did you see the program?" would be the wording because you had previously introduced it and set them them the task of watching it. Another example: " 'Governation' made its premiere last night on the big screen. Did you catch it?"

However,
"There's a new program out called 'Homer Pilon'; have you seen it?" ~ are you aware of the program? You are introducing the idea for the first time, assuming they're unaware of it.

Another example: " 'Governation' made its premiere last night on the big screen. Did you catch it?" : because everyone was waiting in expectation for its release.

Tom, it would be despondently for me to learn such a simple phrase as an exeption. I would prefer to understand it as obeying the rules. As I understand, if you didn't know that most of people use the Past Simple and knew only bare grammar you would use the Present Perfect in the streaker case. Am I right? Is English for you a non-national language?

«I can assure you that "did you see that" in my mind unquestionably conveys the idea of a completed action, isolated in the past.» (Mxsmanic) In my opinion, "Have you been to China?" is not more connected to the present. The hypotetic visit to China is a completely past action, but, as Jim said, we are looking for it in the whole "diary" (as distinct from the streker case) and use the Present Perfect because the action have affected the "diary". And it doesn't matter whether "going there is no longer an option" (Mxsmanic). Mxsmanic, would you say "Were you in China?" if currently it was impossible to go there? I don't think so. And what if you didn't know if the visit was possible? Nevertheless, you would probably use the Present Perfect if you ask for a search in the whole life "diary".

But in the streaker case we are also interested if the "diary" have been affected by what happened... The difference is that in this case we don't mean the whole diary but it's most recent records.

«Have you read the book? --> Do you know what IS in the book?
Have you seen that --> Do you know what HAPPENED?» (Mxsmanic)

In both the cases there is the phrase "Do you know" which means a present result, the experience of an event. And the exerience is in the present, no matter what about it's cause.

Abot Jim's outline.

Properties of the Present Perfect:
a) "ANY time" includes very recent time.
b) In the streaker case, despite we know when the event happened, the time still doesn't matter for us.
c) Of course, the fact of seeing something or somebody is a part of life experiece. Also see c) of the Past Simple section.

Properties of the Past Simple:
0) We mean a specific occasion (incident) -- Yes, but by asking "Have you finished your homework?" we mean a specific occasion too.
a) Yes
b) Yes
c) "Have you ever been to Chima?" - yes or no. (Present Perfect since we mean the whole life) In the streaker case paritially true: not only yes or no but the whole experience in order to discuss the event, for example, because the ability to discuss it lies in the Present.
d) see answer c).

Correct me, Jim. For both the tenses the properies you offered are more or less satified, in my opinion. Maybe the ones of the Past Simple are satisfied to a greater degree than ones of the Present Perfect?

Anton.

Oooops. I posted a message twice... Sorry.

Thank you, Margaret. I'll try to keep my sentences more simple.
«'held' not 'hold'» -- such a foolish mistake. Just because of my carelessness. But would you say about my original example about the examination? I mean it's grammatical corectness.

«'I have recorded...' sounds fine. 'I recorded'... would probably be followed by 'and it sounded fine' (or something)." Ok, but would it be correct if I said "... have recorded... and it sounded good"? I think that is an analogue of "I have been to London, but I didn't see the Big Ban.» -- an implicit indication of time (during his being in London).

«Do you think I can ask my students "Have you seen the program?"» (Tom). I think too that it is incorrect. My reasoning is that you are asking about a certain program and about a certain known time. I consider it as an implicit indication of time. Hence, the Past Simple is better.

«Another example: " 'Governation' made its premiere last night on the big screen. Did you catch it?" : because everyone was waiting in expectation for its release.» (Mi5 Mick). Implicit indication of time again.

Anton

I think you're right Anton : "have you..." doesn't imply any indication of time.

Ant_222 asks:

« Mxsmanic, would you say "Were you in China?" if currently it was impossible to go there? »

Not relevant. I'd say it if I saw a trip to China as something entirely in the past, without any explicit connection to the present, as I've already explained.

You can use whichever tenses you want to express yourself. I can only describe my own usage, which correlates very highly with that of other native speakers. If your usage also correlates with that of native speakers, you'll achieve a high degree of understanding when speaking to them or listening to them; if it does not, the level of understanding may be quite low. Either way, it's your choice.

<<Correct me, Jim. For both the tenses the properies you offered are more or less satified, in my opinion. Maybe the ones of the Past Simple are satisfied to a greater degree than ones of the Present Perfect?>>

Anton,

Yes, I'd say it's a matter of degree. I can accept that as a general principle.

Yet, I can't help thinking that there is an aspect of the Present Perfect that absolutely rules out the possibility of using it in the streaker case and that none of us has found any succinct way of explaining it so far. Maybe all of us can together converge upon an acceptable solution. (And maybe not!) The wonders of the forum format!

I'd like to suggest that the Past Simple, when used to report an event, "cuts a slice out of time". By that I mean that the use of the Past Simple puts temporal limits, both before and after, on the activity or event expressed by the verb. By so doing, it "singularizes" the action. Or should we say, it "particularizes" or "individuates" the action? The Present Perfect (the "diary" tense) does not "cut a slice out of time"; it has no particular focus on any particular moment or period in the past. Any moment or moments, period or periods in the past up to the present moment are encompassed by the Present Perfect. In its journey into the past, the Present Perfect reaches an infinite distance! It is, of course, this difference which allows us to formulate the well-known rule that the Past Simple can occur with adverb phrases of specific time (yesterday, an hour ago, when I realized that I was late, etc.), but that the Present Perfect cannot occur with such phrases, but must be combined with adverbs like "ever" and "yet".

In the streaker case, we want to cut a slice out of time. We do not want to call attention to all of past history trailing off into infinity. We want to show that we are limiting just how far back in time we are willing to go in referring to the event. We also want to particularize the event, to singularize it, which we cannot do with the Present Perfect.

"Have you been to China?" -- "Yes. Once in 1993 and once in 1998." (Here I think it's clear from the naturalness of the answer that the Present Perfect is unsuccessful in singularizing the action. "Did you go to China?" suggests much more that the speaker and the listener probably have one specific trip to China in mind.)

Whether the specific time is mentioned or not, the Past Simple, when used to report an event, always implies "at a certain time". In fact, it is this implication that particularizes the event. Even if the implication is "when it happened", the implication is still there. "Did you see that?" implies "Did you see that when it happened?" Another example: "Did you notice that John got nervous when we mentioned the missing cash?" The noticing we are referring to is the noticing of that specific instance of nervousness that occurred at the time we mentioned the missing cash. "Have you noticed" cannot be used with the specific time "when we mentioned". Likewise, "Have you seen" cannot be used with the implied "a moment ago" of "Did you see THAT (particular event which occurred just a moment ago)" Note the impossibility of "which has occurred a moment ago".

It occurs to me that the word "THAT" in itself particularizes the event and so makes it incompatible with the Present Perfect. This is related, I think, to my original instinct to change the "it" in "Did you see it?" (your original example) to "that".

(An alternate line of reasoning says that the event is so recent that we have not had time to "write it in our diary", but I'm not prepared to go to the cross defending that theory!)

Jim

Well thought out Jim. Is all this stuff taught in English grammar books? Or is it up to the learner to deduce all these ideas?

Jim, I think you formulated the difference between the tenses in a very suggestive way. I think English is unique in the way it can capture the flow of time and the usual way of recalling past events with the Present Perfect (there are similar structures in other European languages as well, but they are not quite capable of this). I myself have always associated a reflective, sometimes even nostalgic quality with this tense (at least when it is used with "always", "never" and "ever" or similar adverbials). When using it, you do not speak about the events alone, but you also reflect on their consequences, sometimes also the way they make you feel. Whereas the Past Simple, as in the original example, calls attention more to the event itself or to its direct impact, therefore it is more objective (perhaps this is why many Americans prefer using it more, I don't know).

>>Is all this stuff taught in English grammar books? Or is it up to the learner to deduce all these ideas?<<

Mi5 Mick, I guess you cannot help having these thoughts at a certain level of proficiency. I myself did too as a teacher when I was striving to explain the difference between the two to my students. It's certainly not the "grammar book" way of putting things, but I like it nevertheless. (Though I am not sure if your remark was one of appreciation or of disapproval).

Appreciation ;)

I have no formal education in anything remotely like this; this is all a hobby for me.

When I disapprove of something you'll know as I'm often a bit coarse about it :)

Mi5Mick:
"Did you see the program?" would be the wording because you had previously introduced it and set them them the task of watching it.

Compare "Have you done your homework?"...

Ant:
"My reasoning is that you are asking about a certain program and about a certain known time. I consider it as an implicit indication of time. Hence, the Past Simple is better."

I will now try to argue that "Have you seen the program?" is appropriate according to the rules that have been stated.

1. When asking the question, I am thinking about the present state (i.e. whether my students KNOW what was said in the program).

2. I am not thinking about a particular time in the past. For all I care, the students could have taped the program and watched it at any time they wanted.

Tom,

Can you offer a theory as to why we can't say "Have you watched/seen the program?" for a show that was set as homework to watch?
but,
"Have you done your homework?" ~ "Did you do your homework?" are exactly the same as far as I can tell.

I don't know anymore! It's not something I've ever thought about 'til being bumped on the head by it here on this forum and I've still got the headache :) But I'll continue to reflect on it, no doubt.

To ask "why" would be to assume that language was consciously designed in this way, which it wasn't.