How many phonemes exist in English in all dialects combined?

Judge   Wednesday, October 06, 2004, 17:44 GMT
Does anyone have any idea of how many phonemes exist in English in all dialects combined?
ScotsJim   Friday, October 08, 2004, 00:39 GMT
This is an interesting question, but not a very simple one. In Scots (my accent), Wales and ''Scouse'' there are a lot of phonemes that don't exist in other English dialects.

Two good examples of such phonemes are,

/W/-whale, wheel, whisker ''aspirated ''w''
/H/-whole, who, whose, whom ''voiced ''h''

There are no symbols for those two sounds in Tom's Chart so, I'm using /W/ and /H/.

I amn't quite sure how many phonemes exist in every single English dialect combined.
ScotsJim   Friday, October 08, 2004, 00:41 GMT
''This is an interesting question, but not a very simple one. In Scots (my accent), Wales and ''Scouse'' there are a lot of phonemes that don't exist in other English dialects.''

Typo- I meant,

In Scots (my accent), Wales and Scouse, there are a lot of phonemes that don't exist in other English dialects.''

I didn't mean to put inverted commas around ''Scouse''.
Mxsmanic   Friday, October 08, 2004, 07:25 GMT
The number of phonemes in a language or dialect depends on where you set the threshold for phonemes. If you consider the existence of even a single minimal pair in the language to be the threshold for phonemic distinction, then the number of phonemes can become enormous. If you require at least 10,000 minimal pairs or sets to qualify a phoneme, then the number of phonemes may be quite small.

In ESL teaching, you teach the phonemes that form the greatest number of minimal pairs or sets first, and then you work down towards the phonemes that form only a handful of minimal pairs, if there is time. After you've covered all of the important phonemes, you can cover the other phonological features of the language that don't directly carry meaning.

The precise number of phonemes is a sort of quantum value: the more you try to pin it down, the more variable it seems to be. It's best not to worry about it unduly.
ScotsJim   Sunday, October 10, 2004, 00:50 GMT
Also, in my accent there's a phonemic distinction between the voiced ''w'' in ''water'', ''week'', ''dwarf'', ''Gwen'', ''backward'' etc. and the ''w'' in ''ware'', ''rareware'', ''software'', ''awkward'', ''swept'', ''swing'', ''tweet'', ''Kwanzaa'
etc.
ScotsJim   Sunday, October 10, 2004, 00:53 GMT
Re-Also, in my accent there's a phonemic distinction between the voiced ''w'' in ''water'', ''week'', ''dwarf'', ''Gwen'', ''backward'' etc. and the voiceless ''w'' in ''ware'', ''rareware'', ''software'', ''awkward'', ''swept'', ''swing'', ''tweet'', ''Kwanzaa'
etc.

I pronounce the ''bu'' in ''building'' and ''buy'' as [bw].

I pronounce the ''pn'' in ''pneumatic'' as a retroflex nasal.

It's hard to pin down the exact number of phonemes in all English dialects combined.
Mxsmanic   Sunday, October 10, 2004, 04:55 GMT
Give me an example of a minimal pair containing voiced and voiceless 'w'.
paul v   Sunday, October 10, 2004, 04:56 GMT
The Shaw Revised Phonetic Alphabet makes use of 72 letters to describe 61 different Phonemes. The additional Phonemes are the Glottalized Vowels (with a Glottal stop) found at the beginning of words or in the middle of foreign place names like Hawai'i.
It provides all the phonemes needed for American accented English.
I suspect it would need 2 or 3 more letters to cover off all the British Accent variations.
It provides a voiced and un-voiced "w". (i.e. Dwarf, Quart)
It provides a letter for each of the 5 common Dipthongs used in English. It provides new letters for Syllabic vowels found in English words, such as girl, twirl, walker, common, blossom, foxes, chasm.
The extra 11 letters provide some redundancy for unstressed or indistinguishable English Vowel sounds. There is also a single Letter for the common "you" = "U" sound, even though it can be represented by a Diagraph.

64 Phonemes should do it.

Check out www.Shawalphabet.com for more details
ScotsJim   Sunday, October 10, 2004, 05:45 GMT
''Give me an example of a minimal pair containing voiced and voiceless 'w'.''

Mxsmanic, In my accent ''wet'' (the adjective) is pronounced with a voiced ''w'' and ''wet'' (the verb) is pronounced with a voiceless ''w''. That's a minimal pair. Also, the ''w'' in ''backward'' is a voiced ''w'' and the ''w'' in ''awkward'' is a voiceless ''w'' in my accent.

Also, in my accent ''fish'' (the noun) and ''fish'' (the verb) are distinguished.

fish-(the noun)-[fiS]
fish-(the verb)-[fi..S]

''can'' (the noun) and ''can'' (the verb) are also distinct in my accent.

can-[c@n] (the noun)
can-[ce..n] (the verb)

''pool'' (a swimming pool) and ''pool'' (the game) are also distinct in my accent.

pool-[pu:l] (swimming pool)
pool-[pu..l] (game)

In my accent also ''work'' (the noun) and ''work'' (the verb) are distinguished.

work-[w^rk] (the noun)
work-[we:rk] (the verb)
Zack   Sunday, October 10, 2004, 06:31 GMT
I'm from Ireland and for me ''berry'' and ''bury'' are not homonyms. For me ''bury'' is pronounced with a ''rolled ''r'' and ''berry'' is pronounced with a regular ''r''.
ScotsJim   Monday, October 11, 2004, 22:20 GMT
Also, in my accent there's a phonemic distinction between the voiced ''l'' and the voiceless ''l''.

I pronounce ''let'', ''light'', ''lip'' etc. with the voiced ''l'' in ''blue''.

But, I pronounce ''lard'' and ''lamb'' with the voiceless ''l'' in ''play''.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

In my accent the ''o'' in ''who'', ''whose'', ''whom'', ''to'' and ''do'' is distinct from the ''o'' in ''two'', ''lose'', ''move'' and ''prove''.


In my accent the ''o'' in ''two'', ''lose'', ''move'' and ''prove'' is distinct from the ''u'' in ''gnu''.

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

In my accent there's a phonemic distinction between the voiced ''r'' and the voiceless ''r''.

I pronounce ''rabbit'', ''road'', ''real'', ''read'', ''right'' (opposite of ''left'') etc. with the voiced ''r'' in ''brick''.

But, I pronounce ''rare'' and ''right'' (opposite of ''wrong'') with the voiceless ''l'' in ''crab''.

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Joe   Monday, October 11, 2004, 22:22 GMT
There are 41 phonemes in all dialects of English.