Re: An Arabic Spanish Preposition!!!

Andrés   Monday, October 11, 2004, 21:58 GMT

Hasta from arabic hatta , of course , but ....

(erroneous information on the Web)

Esa lista creo que deberían revisarla porque tiene muchos errores , incluso los diccionarios árabes dicen que baño procede del italiano.

My dictionary says that the spanish word baño comes from latin balneum , the latin word comes from greek balaneion

italian bagno , french bain , portuguese banho , catalan bany...

"Al" is not from arabic , it is a contraction of a + el , both from latin ad + ille


Also "mia" is not arabic but from latin meum / mea

ITALIAN mio / mia ; CATALAN meu / meva ; PORTUGUESE meu / minha ROMANIAN meu / mea ...

also , "he" comes from latin "habeo"

spanish "yo he" italian "io ho" french "j'ai" portuguese "eu ei" catalan "jo he" ...

dado (given) My references didn't even mention Arabic in any context at all for this item.

italian "dato" romanian "dat" portuguese "dado" ... all these forms from latin DATUS

Other error , "sera" is not from arabic

SPANISH "será" PORTUGUESE "será" ITALIAN "sarà" FRENCH "sera" CATALAN "serà" GALICIAN "será"

also "real" comes from latin , "mistico" and "abismal" have a greek origin , "robo" is of germanic origin ....

mjd   Tuesday, October 12, 2004, 08:49 GMT
You're definitely right on your point regarding "balneum."

In Portuguese it's "banho." Here is what the Texto Editora dictionary says:

do Lat. *baneu por balneu

However, you're mistaken on your assertion regarding "al." There are so many "al" words in Portuguese and Spanish because of the Moorish occupation of the Iberian peninsula for nearly 800 years.

Once again I cite the Texto Editora Online Portuguese Dictionary:


"art. def. árabe, presente no início de muitas palavras portuguesas."

I'll translate: (Arabic definite article present at the beginning of many Portuguese words)

I'll go even further. Fernando V. Peixoto da Fonseca, one of the linguists of the Portuguese grammar site "Ciberdúvidas," responded to a question about Arabic influence in Portuguese. While his response is rather long, here is a short snippet (I'll translate it for those who can't make out the Portuguese):

"Quase todos os arabismos começam por al- (artigo definido invariável em árabe), por vezes com o l assimilado à consoante inicial do substantivo árabe (arrabalde, Arrábida, arrais), havendo frequentemente posterior simplificação (açorda, açúcar, ataúde, azougue)."

"[Almost all Arabisms start with 'al'- (unchanging definite article in Arabic), at times the L blending with the Arabic noun's initial consonant...]"

He then goes on citing examples and further simplifications as in the case for the word "açúcar" (sugar) or "azouge" (butcher). "Alfama," an old neighborhood of downtown Lisbon and the "Algarve," a region in the south of can also trace these names back to the presence of Arabic speakers. "Andalucia" in Spain was known as "Al-Andalus" during the time of the Moors.

"Ao", in Portuguese, is the contraction of the preposition "a" with the definite article "o." For example:

"Ele foi ao supermercado." (He went to the supermarket)

In the case of a feminine noun, it'd by "à":

"Ele foi à casa de banho." (He went to the bathroom)
nic   Tuesday, October 12, 2004, 10:36 GMT

MJD is right, the same with french : al does not only correspond to au in french.
Example: A qui appartiens ce sac? Ce sac appartient à la jeune fille

à la = al
Xatufan   Thursday, October 14, 2004, 01:15 GMT
What are you talking about?

"Ce sac appartient à la jeune fille"

That would be in Spanish: "Esta bolsa pertenece a la muchacha", not "al muchacha".

Andrés: The "he" they're talking about is like in the sentences "he aquí", "he allí", etc. And not "he venido", etc. That's another thing.

"Dado" is not only "given", it's also "die" (cube with numbers). That meaning comes from Arabic.

You're right when you say that "al" comes from "a + el", which comes from "ad + ille". I think mdj has mistaken this Spanish contraction with the Arabic article.
mjd   Thursday, October 14, 2004, 01:25 GMT

I didn't write that original post nor did I mention Spanish in my post, so I don't think I made the mistake. The "al" in Arabic is a definite article, therefore it gradually worked its way into the languages of the Iberian peninsula (see my post above).

The "al" to which Andres was mistakenly referring was the preposition "a" with definite article "la." Given that the Portuguese definite articles are "o" or "a", when contracted with this preposition, they become "ao" or "à" (a + a). The "al" in "alcactraz" (pelican) is just part of the name no longer functions as a definite article.
nic   Thursday, October 14, 2004, 11:00 GMT

Andrès said Al= au in french, i said not only au but à la if feminine, so "à la jeune fille".

Xatufan   Thursday, October 14, 2004, 23:48 GMT
Xatufan   Thursday, October 14, 2004, 23:50 GMT
"À la" = "A la" in Spanish

Fui a la biblioteca.

Mató a la niña. (terrible sentence!!!)
mjd   Friday, October 15, 2004, 00:04 GMT

I don't understand what your point is. If you're trying to say that "a la" isn't "al," we know....that's what Nic and I have been saying all along.
NIC   Friday, October 15, 2004, 11:58 GMT

I have been victim from a "delirium tremens" and i wrote the opposite so Xatufan was right
mjd   Friday, October 15, 2004, 21:00 GMT
All I know is that everything I wrote is correct. What did I write?....that the "al" present at the beginning of many Portuguese words can be traced back to the Moorish occupation of the Iberian peninsula. The "ao" Andres was writing about has nothing to do with the "al" at the beginning of the word "Algarve." The definite article would be "o" and the "al" is just part of the I said, it no longer functions as a definite article.
abc   Friday, October 15, 2004, 23:55 GMT
¿De qué estáis hablando?
Tenéis que conformaros.
Xatufan   Saturday, October 16, 2004, 02:03 GMT
Yeah, that's what I've tried to say. I have a delirium tremens too (what the hell is that?)

Mdj, as I can see, your native language is Portuguese. Where are you from? Portugal? Brazil? Guinea-Bissau? Macau?

I've noticed that after your name, there's a beautiful silver star (but Tom's star is even more beautiful!). What does it mean? Are you the owner of this crazy English site? Are you sucking my father's money?
mjd   Saturday, October 16, 2004, 03:06 GMT
Well, Xatufan, I'll address each of your statements/questions:

My native language is English, as I was born and raised in the United States. My second language is Portuguese.

Tom's the owner...I'm just here to help.

As for your dad's money...I can assure you it's no where near me. I'm also not sure why one would "suck money."
Jordi   Saturday, October 16, 2004, 05:42 GMT
Dear MJD:
There are other meanings to "suck" in Spanish. One of them is "chupar sangre" (to suck somebody's blood). It must be a widespread idiom, in many languages, since the Stone Ages since it means to leave somebody without energy or strength. As you can see Dracula's myth is as old as human beings. To suck somebody's money, in Spanish, means to "leave him without" and, therefore, very weak indeed. I'm sure something similar must exist in informal Portuguese at least. I suppose young Xatufan's dad pays for the time he spends in the Internet. That's his problem, of course.