Frustrating for the beginner of English...

NB:

<<The examiners for OCR, one of the three examination groups in England>> !!! ;-)

Paulski said: >>By the way I wasn't 'complaining' about the spelling/pronunciation of my language. It doesn't bother me.....<<

It doesn't bother me either, especially since I'm a non native, I made those remarks with some earlier threads on spelling and spelling reform in mind. At any rate, let's put up with the inventiveness of English that may turn a fish into a creature called

H
>G +++T+++I<<< :-)
O

As for Gaelic and French orthography, I think they follow a more consistent pattern than English does, e.g. you will almost always prounce the digraph "ou" as /u/, though in "Ils chantent", the "-ent" will be entirely lost in speech, but this at least is also done consistently and predictably. With Gaelic, the letter to be omitted can be predicted with near 100% accuracy after listening to live spoken Gaelic frequently enough - it cannot help being a language that defies the Latin script, originally devised for a language phoneticaly much simpler than either English, Gaelic or French. :-) The notion of diacritics used for unique sounds seems to have been completely foreign to Germanic (and Celtic) languages west of the Rhine, though not quite to French.

"The funniest thing I realised, though, is that it is usually native sepakers who complain about English spelling, rather than non-natives."

Exactly! I noticed exactly the same thing. And it seems weird because native speakers should logically be used to their language and shouldn't have so many problems with it.

When I first started learning English, I didn't find English spelling hard at all. Maybe it's funny, but as a little child I was told that my native language is the only phonetic language, so I assumed that foreign languages are usually not phonetic. I learnt English words by experience, simply by reading and writing, and I never had to bother with the spelling, I was always good at it. Now I see that most foreigners don't seem to complain about English spelling nearly as much as the native speakers. Maybe it's something in their own language that helps them learn English spelling correctly, and those who learn it without knowing any other language must find it more difficult.

Damian,
After having read your frightening (I must say) article, I've got the impression the situation in uk schools is almost as worse as it is in french schools. Spaniards tolds me the same about spanish education system and so did Germans. But I must admit that nowadays a french pupil will spell better an english word than a french one. There are so young french boys and girls who told me that for them english grammar (and orthography, because they pronounce the words according the spelling, i. e. they'll say [oFten] for "often") is easier than french one!

Vincent:

Thanks for your comments..I am relieved that the apparent decline in proper language use is not confined to the UK (especially England). Before I get shot down and flamed again, I have to say that it is much worse in England than it is up here as the educational systems and mentality differ appreciably between the two UK countries.

I think it's right to post links in here to let you guys know exactly what the current state of the English language is in the UK. I guess you know about the spread of Estuary in much of England, and I have to agree with those of you who abhor this form of English. The glottal stop is unpleasant to those who like to hear good spoken English. Estuary is not really a regional accent...nobody would ever legitimately criticise those. Some are nicer than others, of course, but they are not something that has deliberately been adopted in an attempt to "dumb down" as a form of protest against a previous class based system.

I love our language but there is a mentality in many people that seems to promote the idea that it's not cool to use proper grammar and speak correctly because it's seen as a symptom of snobbery from the past. The media very much contribute to this way of thinking.

On GMTV this morning three kids from Southampton were being interviewed with their mother on a family dispute issue. I think they were in the 8 to 12 age group but they were so inarticulate it was difficult to understand what they were trying to say. Yet their mother spoke beautiful English. Strange!

Vincent,

That's interesting, I have always found French spelling easier and more consistent than that of English. The only thing that bothers me is that whole morphemes are indicated in writing which are completely absent from speech (like the "-ent" ending in third person plural, or "-s" or "x" in plural forms). I understand it serves to prevent ambiguity, but "ils chante", "les femme" or "les chevau" (perhaps with circumflex accents to indicate that something used to be there) would be just as unambiguous, and a good way to admit that French has lost most of its inflectional endings in the course of time. But French seems as spelling-reform-resistant as is English. :-( Or it may be that the traditional 26-letter Latin script is simply not adequate to catch up with the phonetic peculiarities of French, and a more sophisticated alphabet like IPA should be used instead. :-)

>>After having read your frightening (I must say) article, I've got the impression the situation in uk schools is almost as worse as it is in french schools. Spaniards tolds me the same about spanish education system and so did Germans. But I must admit that nowadays a french pupil will spell better an english word than a french one. There are so young french boys and girls who told me that for them english grammar (and orthography, because they pronounce the words according the spelling, i. e. they'll say [oFten] for "often") is easier than french one!<<

I think spelling (and speaking) problems for pupils must have something to do with their general level of literacy, and I also agree that for them it is "trendy" to use "bad" language ("bad" should be taken in a grammatical sense). Nowadays they rely on visual sources like TV, hardly ever reading in a concentrated way and if they write at all, it is mostly text messages on mobile phones. I don't think texts spelling is inherently bad, but this is true only if you know the difference between proper spelling and using a kind of "shorthand" when convenient, such as when writing text messages or chatting. By the way, here in Hungary, a recent PISA survey gave depressing results as to pupils' general understanding of complex texts, such as instruction manuals. So the time may come when "non-curricular refreshment courses in general reading and writing skills for adolescents and young adults" will have to be introduced. This would also provide some pension supplement for retired literature teachers...

Eastener,
I guess we all have got the same problems...

I just read that web page that Damian gave us and I have to say that the mistakes mentioned in that text are exactly the most common mistakes that I've noticed most native English speakers make. The worst one is definitely "would of" instead of "would have". I can't believe how many people do that.

Crazy English Spelling bothers me.
I like to write.
And after 40 years of education, I still have to pound on my head and write out the word a number of times before I recognize the correct one.
English should be better than this.
Thank G-d for spell checkers. At least on a computer I don't feel like an Ignoramus.
Partial attempt at spelling reform in the old Alphabet are worse than useless. It creates 2 correct spellings. And we will never get the whole world to accept a new standard, without a gun to their head.
It's useless.
I think we need to to go to a new Alphabet. The Shaw or Shavian Phonetic Alphabet seems the best bet.

Anyway, Paul V.