This is probably for Jordi...
Lots of questions.
I understand the official language of Andorra is Catalan, but are there any other regional languages there too?
Is Andorran Catalan different from the standard Catalan they speak in your part of Spain? Are there any Basque influences? Is there a distinct accent?
Andorre is protected by the president of the French Republic, some people speak french
Alec you're wrong and outdated.
A few years ago Andorra became a sovereign state in the United Nations.
Until then Andorra was, and still is to a certain extent because it's a very small state, protected by both the King of Spain (represented by the Bishop of the Catalan Seu d'Urgell) and the President of the French Republic (as heirs of ancient noble rights in southern France). vive la République!
The only official language in Andorra is Catalan although it has received a lot of immigration as a thriving tourist resort. The most widely spoken languages are Catalan, Spanish and Portuguese since the latter have lots of immigrants there. Catalan is the only compulsory language although everybody tends to also learn Spanish, French and, more and more so, English. There are a few French families but no as many as the others. It is extremely difficult to become an Andorra citizen even for neighbouring Catalans who share language and cultures. The reasons are obvious and are due to size.
There is one standard Catalan language and two main dialectal areas in the Catalan language based mainly in accents (differences could be similar as between RP British and GA English). The eastern dialects have their capital city in Barcelona and also include the Balearic Islands and the city of l'Alguer in Sardinia, a medieval Catalan outpost where Catalan is still spoken. Andorra belongs to the western dialects spoken from Andorra down to Guardamar, to the south of Valencia and Alacant (Alicante) some 600 km. down the Spanish Mediterranean.
There is no more Basque ifluence in Andorra than in Barcelona. We do have a few ancient loanwards since Catalan was born in the Pyrennees.
There is a small town called Llívia, near the Spanish Catalan border, but within France, that still belogs to Spain near Puigcerdà in the Cerdanya (Cerdagne for my French friends). It is surrounded by French Catalan villages. In Llívia everybody speaks good traditional Catalan whilst Catalan is dying out in the neighbouring French villages, especially amongst the young. Thins are changing though because they are becoming more and more interested in their Catalan people to the south, with some of the highest standard of life in Spain and Europe, right now.
Yes, but there is also Décret n° 2003-464 du 19 mai 2003 between french education and the andorran one which defines the learn of french with andorran people.
I don't see why an aristocrat could not be president, there are also some aristocrats at the french revolution who activly partipated to the revolution and some poor farmers who did everything as possible to keep the king on power.
This is precisly democracy.
I agree with your second point (about aristocrats although "aristocracy" and "presidency" are antonyms). The fact is not all Andorrans have to learn French and most of them learn Spanish as their international language. Must I tell you I visit Andorra now and then?
I did not say all the andorrans learns french (if i remember well it must be something like 30%). And of course, many of them speak spanish. The only thing i forgot was as you said the spanish protection.
Administration in Andorre is done by french or andorrans : procès-verbal de la séance du 21 février 2002
coopération administrative France - Andorre
www.senat.fr/leg/pjl01-282.html+andorre+relation+france&hl=fr
Maybe there are some spanish, i did not say the opposite
C O N V E N T I O N
entre le Gouvernement de la République française
et le Gouvernement de la Principauté d'Andorre
relative à la coopération administrative
Le Gouvernement de la République française et le Gouvernement de la Principauté d'Andorre ci-après désignés les parties,
Considérant leurs relations de coopération et désireux de les développer ;
Considérant la pratique établie depuis plusieurs années d'une participation de magistrats relevant de l'ordre judiciaire français et de fonctionnaires relevant de la fonction publique française (fonction publique de l'Etat) à l'exercice de fonctions publiques de droit andorran ;
Considérant la nécessité de préciser les conditions dans lesquelles ces agents sont nommés et exercent leurs fonctions ;
Considérant la nécessité de préciser la situation des fonctionnaires de nationalité andorrane relevant de la fonction publique française appelés à remplir un mandat électif, à devenir membre du gouvernement en Andorre, ou à exercer une haute charge pour le compte de la Principauté ;
sont convenus de ce qui suit :
Article 1er
La présente convention détermine les conditions dans lesquelles des magistrats relevant de l'ordre judiciaire français et des fonctionnaires relevant de la fonction publique française (fonction publique de l'Etat) peuvent occuper un emploi public en Andorre.
Article 2
La partie andorrane informe par la voie diplomatique les autorités françaises de son souhait de nommer un agent, indique les fonctions qu'il remplirait et, le cas échéant, propose le nom d'un candidat à l'agrément des autorités françaises. Celles-ci font connaître leur décision ou proposent des candidats dans les meilleurs délais.
Article 3
La partie française s'engage à ce que toutes dispositions soient prises, dans le cadre statutaire dont relève l'agent, pour faciliter l'exercice des fonctions qui lui sont confiées en Andorre.
Article 4
L'agent exerce ses fonctions dans le respect de la Constitution et des lois andorranes.
Article 5
Pendant la durée de ses fonctions, l'agent est considéré comme résident légal en Principauté.
Article 6
Une fois nommés, les agents sont placés en position soit de mise à disposition totale ou partielle, dans la limite et le carde des disponibilités budgétaires de la partie française, soit de détachement. Ils demeurent soumis aux règles statutaires les concernant.
Article 7
Les agents concernés sont autorisés, dans les limites prévues par les dispositions statutaires des magistrats relevant de l'ordre judiciaire français et des fonctionnaires relevant de la fonction publique française (fonction publique de l'Etat), à percevoir les indemnités ou rémunérations correspondant à leurs fonctions en Andorre.
Article 8
Lorsqu'un agent couvert par le présent accord est appelé à exercer un mandat électif, ou à devenir membre du gouvernement en Andorre, il peut être placé en détachement conformément aux règles statutaires le concernant. Lorsqu'un agent couvert par le présent accord est appelé à exercer une haute charge pour le compte de la Principauté, il peut être placé en position de disponibilité pour convenances personnelles conformément aux règles statutaires des agents concernés.
Article 9
Chacune des parties notifie à l'autre l'accomplissement des procédures internes requises par sa constitution pour l'entrée en vigueur de la présente convention ; celle-ci prend effet le premier jour du mois suivant la date de la réception de la dernière des notifications. L'une des parties pourra notifier à l'autre, par écrit et avec un préavis de six mois, sa décision de dénoncer la présente convention.
Fait à Andorre-la-Vieille, le 14 février 2001 en double exemplaire en français et en catalan, chaque exemplaire fait également foi.
Pour le Gouvernement
de la République française :
Henri Leclercq
Ambassadeur de France
en Andorre
Pour le Gouvernement
de la Principauté d'Andorre :
Enric Casadevall
Ministre de la présidence,
de l'économie et de la santé
you hahe also :
http://www.andorra.be/fr/2.4.htm
Monseigneur Joan Enric
Vives évêque d'Urgell
M. Jacques Chirac
Président de la République Française
Les deux Coprinces de l'Andorre sont d'une façon conjointe et indivise le chef de l'Etat.
A l'heure actuelle cette charge est exercée conjointement par :
• Monseigneur Joan Enric Vives, évêque d'Urgell (une région de la Catalogne en Espagne)
• Monsieur Jacques CHIRAC, Président de la République Française.
I am sorry for those who does not speak any word of french.
Are you saying that Llívia is a Spanish territorial enclave within the borders of France?
How is it administered and serviced?
Dear Harvey:
Yes Llívia is a Spanish territorial enclave within the borders of France, strictly speaking that is.
Llivia is only 1 km (something more than half-a-mile) from the Spanish border and it is administered by the Generalitat de Catalunya (Catalan Autonomous Government) as any other town in Catalonia.
I got this from the Internet for you. Most Catalan sites now dispose of English versions as well:
http://www.grenspalen.nl/llivia/llivia-in-english.html
I've pasted a few paragraphs for you:
... Llivia is a Spanish enclave in the French Pyrenees. It remained Spanish because of its city-rights obtained in the past. Llivia is demarcated by 45 bordermarkers.
... Llivia is situated 1 km from the Spanish border and about 20 km east from Andorra. It's size is 12 square km and the village of Llivia has 1200 inhabitants.
...Puigcerda, just across the current Spanish boundary, had become the primary town in the Cerdagne, which belonged as a whole to Spain. For what ever reason, Llivia received city rights from the Spanish king which turned out to be crucial in later days.
...In 1659 the Spanish-French border was established in the treaty of the Pyrenees. In the treaty of Llivia (1660) the half of Cerdagne including 33 villages was given to France. Spain however refused to hand over Llivia, simply because it was a city and not a village. That's how Llivia became an enclave.
...Border problems
Llivia is connected by a neutral road (D68) with Spain and this road was until 1995 forbidden for foreign cars. The crossing with the French N20 was dangerous but the Spanish didn't accept in the seventees the right of way of the N20. They insisted on a unhindered connection between Llivia and the spanish mainland. The French Stop-signs were often being demolished in this "guerre des stops". In the end a viaduct was built, payed by the Spanish government. The same problem occurred with the crossing with the D30 but here a roundabout was constructed in 2001.
As a compensation for becoming an enclave, Llivia received in property a large French area to the west of the lake of Bouillouses, meant for cattle and forestry. The building of a french hotel (l'hôtel Bones Hores) on this property led to many civil courts between France and Spain. As a result, the hotel will become Llivian property in 2030. Another area - to the east of the lake - was lost in 1831 by a court decision.
Isn't Europe a fascinating continent? The French, of course, know very little about this small Spanish Catalan village within the map they learn in school.
The fact is Catalan will never disappear from that area in Catalonia. Not as long as Llívia remains under Catalan control.
Yes, it is fascinating. I think the minorities and territorial anomalies are the most interesting things of all. Certainly, they are much more interesting than the dominant cultures.
Are you aware of any other really interesting anomalies in your region? I'd be interested to hear.
There are several geopolitical anomalies in Europe. The most interesting situation that I'm aware of is the town of Baarle in the Netherlands. Parts of the town are Belgian (forming the municipality of Baarle-Hertog) and parts are Dutch (forming the municipality of Baarle-Nassau).
Baarle-Hertog comprises 22 different enclaves (two of which, the so-called central enclave and an enclave near Reth, have a single-point connection to each other) that are all surrounded by Dutch territory.
Baarle-Nassau comprises eight different enclaves, six of which are embodied in the central Baarle-Hertog enclave. The seventh enclave is embodied in the Oordeel exclave in Baarle-Hertog, whereas the eighth enclave, Vossenberg, is located in Belgium proper, NW of Ginhoven just S of the border.
For more info:
http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/baarle.htm
Wow, that's interesting. What a mess.
Actually, now that I think of it we have a small border anomaly in Canada just down the coast from where I grew up too. Pt. Roberts, Washington is a tiny peninsula that geographically should be part of the suburbs of Vancouver, British Columbia.
Thanks to treaty, though, it is U.S. territory, even though it is tiny and far cut off from the rest of the state.
When I was little, Pt. Roberts was the place where Vancouverites went to sin. It had wild bars with happy hours (which was then illegal in B.C), porno theatres, and lots of massage parlours. It also had a TV station that broadcast 'forbidden' U.S. TV shows to Vancouverites.
Of course, those days are gone now and I understand that the Point is a lot more respectable. It was certainly exotic when I was young though.
I have it in my head that there is another U.S. territorial enclave in Manitoba or Northern Ontario, too.
For anyone interested, here is a map that shows where Pt. Roberts is.
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Cabana/9282/pointroberts1.html