Standard Irish English?

Easterner   Thursday, April 14, 2005, 04:49 GMT
Jim said: >>Yes, maybe "there is some tacit convention that foreigners are not supposed to speak like native" speakers. I'd find it more pleasant if a non-native speaker not try to speak with any accent but their own. A naturally acquired accent sounds ... well, natural ... but one you try to put on will always sound fake. You'll wind up sounding false if you go sporting a put on accent.<<

Well, I don't know... I agree you may never end up sounding like a native speaker hundred per cent, but you may come very near to speaking with a "neutral" standard accent. I guess a very foreign accent can also be very disturbing. But then, who can show me a native speaker who doesn't speak "with an accent", with regard to RP (or Estuary?), GenAm or General Australian (if there is such a thing as the last one)? On the other hand, the worst thing is to try to imitate an accent particular to a region, or to a given (especialy lower) social class. That may earn you a frown from most native speakers (in any language, not just English).
Travis   Thursday, April 14, 2005, 05:40 GMT
Well, Easterner, I've noticed that I've often heard Indian or Middle Eastern individuals, who rather than having any recognizable non-native accent, instead speak in markedly conservative RP. Rather than having any non-native accent at all, they instead use a strongly marked native speech form, albeit markedly "high" register-wise rather than "low" register-wise, to the point that they don't sound like most native speakers precisely due to speaking a very "high" speech form "too well"; most native English English-speakers, even upper class ones, do not speak such strongly conservative RP in this day and age. It is thus notable that one would actually intentionally learn to fluently speak, with no non-native accent, such a highly marked speech form overall, and one that is marked in such a fashion which significantly removes one from the general natively English-speaking population.
Deborah   Thursday, April 14, 2005, 06:22 GMT
Jim,

<< How does a non-native speaker know when their attempt to imitate the native speaker's accent reaches the point at which they start to exaggerate the it? I say just pick up the accent naturally like the Russian man seems to have done. >>

Maybe when your face feels or looks a bit distorted. When the Russian guy said "home" with his attempted RP, his mouth stretched out sideways very wide on the first part of the vowel.

As for my attempts to speak Spanish (which I hadn't studied), what sounded strained were my attempts to make my intonation sound more Mexican, and I probably sounded a bit like the bandidos in "Treasure of the Sierra Madre".

I just took my third Spanish class tonight, with a Mexican teacher. I plan to continue at this school, and after this 8-week course is over, I'll probably have another teacher, who might be from Spain. It'll be interesting to see what sort of accent I end up with. Maybe Irish? (Just trying to tie this in with the topic of this thread.)
Jordi   Thursday, April 14, 2005, 06:24 GMT
Travis

The fact is that such individuals if such happens (such conservative native-like RP in Indian Middle Eastern voices) end up speaking like their peers if they happen to live in such a native atmosphere for such a really long time. The wondrous marvel is that they are able to learnsuch a native like accent having learnt such as adults. I would say that in many cases such has happened because they have spent a few years in such expensive English public schools and universities that they only have to speak such with the upper crust.
When such happens those who never really reach such a sublime level simply die of envy and end up saying that they have a "fake accent".
Great Indian, Pakistani and Sheiks' heirs and politicians have always spoken in such an RP conservative way. Just to remember a couple of such I would mention the late Mrs. Indira Ghandi from India and Mrs. Benzair Bhuto from Pakistan both of whom were educated in the best English schools.
JJM   Thursday, April 14, 2005, 09:47 GMT
Actually, what I've often found with Indian English speakers is a dichotomy of accent:

Those involved in institutional occupations - lawyers, teachers, civil servants, military - tend to emulate a British accent.

Those involved in business - and particularly those in the IT world - often gravitate towards a more American accent.
Vytenis   Thursday, April 14, 2005, 11:01 GMT
Jim,

So you think I should deliberately try to speak with my Lithuanian accent if I speak English?
You see, the problem with me is that I naturally switch to the accent of the country I am in, without conscious effort. That may sound strane, but that really always the case with me. So do you mean i really sound so weird speaking Standard American Engish in America and Standard British English in Britain? I do not think so. As Easterner said, the best idea is to come as close as psossible to the neutral standard of that particular country you are in.
Vytenis   Thursday, April 14, 2005, 11:03 GMT
But of course I agree too that overdoing is not good. I lauh at myself now remembering my parroting Cockney or American cowboy speech :))))
Ben   Thursday, April 14, 2005, 13:17 GMT
Vytenis,

I wouldn't really think you sounded "weird" speaking with something of a British accent in America--most Europeans use the British model, so it's very common.

I've said this before: perfect pronunciation isn't everything. I know two people from Taiwan, one who speaks with flawless pronunciation and one who doesn't. Surprisingly, I find conversation with the guy without perfect pronunciation easier. Because he has a much stronger grasp on grammar, vocabulary and the American idiom. The other man might sound like an American sometimes, but I can barely talk to him, because he has very limited conversation skills.
Vytenis   Friday, April 15, 2005, 11:40 GMT
Ben,

Actually, my question was:

Is it pleasant for the native speakers if I, non-native, try to speak with their accent (be it American, British, Australian, Irish etc. depending on the native speaker) or is it better if I retain my native accent. Because when was in the USA, I tried to speak with pure American accent, but of course everyone immediately discovered I was a foreighner, so did it not sound weird to them? Maybe there is some tacit convention that foreigners are not supposed to speak like native spakers?
Deborah   Saturday, April 16, 2005, 00:54 GMT
Vytenis, unless people learn foreign languages when they are very young children, they rarely manage to sound like native speakers. I don't know how old you were when you started speaking English. Sometimes a person can even sound like a native for several sentences and then slip up on one word, and it'll be something that'll be obvious to the native listener. I certainly don't think there's any tacit convention that foreigners are not *supposed* to speak like native speakers. It's just that they generally are unable to.

I'm not sure what Jim meant by "I'd find it more pleasant if a non-native speaker not try to speak with any accent but their own." What is "their own" accent? Does it mean you shouldn't make any attempt to imitate the sounds of the language your're learning? In my beginning Spanish class, the students vary greatly in their ability to mimic. But I think we're all attempting to copy the teacher's accent, even the woman who makes Spanish sound like Oklahoman.
Deborah   Saturday, April 16, 2005, 01:08 GMT
Vytenis, I realized I didn't answer your question. I'd say that it's usually pleasant to hear someone trying to speak with a native accent. Sometimes a person who accomplishes that quite well might reveal himself, though, by overdoing some of the sounds that are foreign to his native language. For example, people whose native languages have rolled R's often linger too long on the R's in English, so it sounds forced. I've heard British actors doing the same thing with final R's when they're attempting American accents.

I think these exaggerations tend to disappear, though, with practice. I had a Mexican friend who didn't study English until she came to this country in her 20's. She was determined to be able to pronounce all the sounds that don't exist in (non-Castilian) Spanish, and some of them sounded somewhat exaggerated at first. But after a couple of years they sounded perfectly normal, and she ended up with barely a trace of a Mexican accent. Who knows? She might not have accomplished that if she hadn't overdone it at first.
Vytenis   Saturday, April 16, 2005, 07:00 GMT
>>>Sometimes a person can even sound like a native for several sentences and then slip up on one word, and it'll be something that'll be obvious to the native listener.

Yeah, that's probably the case with me... I don't strain, though. It's all natural. It's like I swith on to some brain mode which allows me to perfectly parrot the sounds of a particular accent. The only problem is that this ability keeps coming and going, so I sometimes may sound like a native speaker for a while and then switch back to my Lithuanian accent. This might sound weird to native listeners...