Pronunciation of "syrup"

Kirk   Friday, May 27, 2005, 10:40 GMT
I recently joined the forum at unilang and one discussion going on there is the pronunciation of "syrup," so I just thought it'd be interesting to see the variation of antimooners. I say [s3`@p] (so, the first vowel sounds like the one in "sir" or "her"), but I've also heard things like [sIr@p]. Maybe you could also indicate where you're from, as that seems to be a determining factor in some cases (I'm from California).

Also, while I'm on the subject, is anyone here also a member at unilang? They have a pretty cool forum going on. You can post in IPA among other bells and whistles, and there are some interesting conversations going on over there, too. Here's the link for the English forum:

http://home.unilang.org/main/forum/viewforum.php?f=21

Here's the link for the general forum with a pull-down menu on the bottom right called "jump to" where you can go to various forums dealing with different topics and specific languages:

http://home.unilang.org/main/forum/viewforum.php?f=1

My username is svenska84 if you happen to come across any of the posts I've written. Of course, all this isn't to undermine antimoon, which is still great, but unilang has a great forum going on too, and it allows people to sign up officially and things like that (I know some antimooners were vocal in wanting some similar type of feature at antimoon after recent troll/spammer attacks). Even if you don't wanna sign up for a username at unilang and just wanna browse it's definitely worth checking out :)
andre in usa   Friday, May 27, 2005, 14:23 GMT
I say it so that it sounds like "sear-up." This will pique your interest if you haven't already seen it:

http://cfprod01.imt.uwm.edu/Dept/FLL/linguistics/dialect/staticmaps/q_27.html

I'm from a suburb of Philadelphia.
Deborah   Friday, May 27, 2005, 18:10 GMT
I say [s3`@p] ("sir"). My brother says [sIr@p] ("sear"). We're both from California.
andre in usa   Friday, May 27, 2005, 18:24 GMT
Deborah,

I think "sear-up" would most closely be transcribed with a [i], not a [I].
Lazar   Friday, May 27, 2005, 18:51 GMT
I pronounce "syrup" as [sIr@p]. Mind you that that isn't the same as "sear-up" for me - I would pronounce "sear-up" as [sir@p].
Lazar   Friday, May 27, 2005, 19:15 GMT
I'm from Massachusetts, of course. I think maintaining tense-lax distinctions before [r] is a Northeastern thing.
Brennus   Friday, May 27, 2005, 21:26 GMT
Seer-up and sur-up are the only pronunciations I've heard in the United States but Canadian English pronouces it suh-rup (or s@r:@p) the further away from the U.S. border you get.
Deborah   Friday, May 27, 2005, 21:48 GMT
andre in usa, that was a result of my ignorance of phonetic alphabets. Not realizing that there are 3 pronunciations (I only knew sir-up and sear-up), I assumed that the alternate spelling in Kirk's post represented sear-up.
Kirk   Friday, May 27, 2005, 22:24 GMT
"andre in usa, that was a result of my ignorance of phonetic alphabets. Not realizing that there are 3 pronunciations (I only knew sir-up and sear-up), I assumed that the alternate spelling in Kirk's post represented sear-up."

Actually, Deborah, you were probably right. Most (but not all) American speakers have [I] before [r], not [i], especially since your brother is from California where I've never heard [ir] for a word like "cheer" or "sear." In GenAm and (at least) California, "near" and "beer" are [nIr] and [bIr] respectively, so I'd assume someone pronouncing "syrup" that way would say [sIr@p].
Travis   Friday, May 27, 2005, 22:35 GMT
For the record, I myself pronounce the word "syrup" as /"sr=@p/ -> ["s3`.@p].
guy   Saturday, May 28, 2005, 02:38 GMT
i pronounce it /sIr@p/ or /sir@p/...
kirk, i thought californians didn't really differentiate tense and lax vowels before /r/ and /N/.
Smith   Saturday, May 28, 2005, 03:31 GMT
guy,


As for /N/, there are no tense vowels that traditionally ever occur before /N/. Only lax vowels can occur before /N/, with the exception of the word ''boing''. But, in California, Three of the lax vowels become tense vowels before /N/, but that doesn't produce any homonyms or rhymes, because lax and tense vowels never contrast before /N/ in any dialect. You can never have a word ''bayng'' nor ''theeng'', only ''bang'' and ''thing''.
Smith   Saturday, May 28, 2005, 03:33 GMT
P.S.

There are no ''eeng'' and ''ayng'' words, only ''ing'' and ''ang'' words.
andre in usa   Saturday, May 28, 2005, 04:32 GMT
<<Most (but not all) American speakers have [I] before [r], not [i], especially since your brother is from California where I've never heard [ir] for a word like "cheer" or "sear." In GenAm and (at least) California, "near" and "beer" are [nIr] and [bIr] respectively, so I'd assume someone pronouncing "syrup" that way would say [sIr@p].>>

I've never heard words like "near" and "beer" being pronounced [nIr] and [bIr] anywhere. Are you sure about this?

This is how the vowel is transcribed in the survey I linked to above:

a. [i] "sear-up" (13.43%)
b. [I] "sih-rup" (34.08%)
c. [@] as in "sir" (49.89%)

But I can see why your transcription [s3`@p] for "sir-up" makes sense, too.
Kirk   Saturday, May 28, 2005, 05:54 GMT
<<i pronounce it /sIr@p/ or /sir@p/...
kirk, i thought californians didn't really differentiate tense and lax vowels before /r/ and /N/.>>

We don't. I only have lax vowels before /r/ (except for [A]). Besides [A], the only time I can think of a tense vowel before [r] for me would be in something like "seer," (one who sees) /si.@r/ --> [si.@`], as compared to "sear" [sIr], but those aren't equal comparisons because "seer" is quite different on an underlying morphological level. For me:

"forest" [fOrIst]
"hear" [hIr]
"carry" [kEri]

<<I've never heard words like "near" and "beer" being pronounced [nIr] and [bIr] anywhere. Are you sure about this?>>

Yup. I'm sure. At least everyone I've ever heard here has [I] before [r], but I'm almost certain that's not just a Californian thing. It simply follows the tense-lax neutralizations common in many North American dialects, and in my dialect they're merged to [I] in this sound environment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tense-lax_neutralization

As with many Americans (tho certainly not all), the tense-lax neutralizations are quite advanced in my speech, as I have the "Mary, marry, merry" " mirror, nearer" "hurry, furry" and "Florida oranges" mergers (except for the anomalies "sorry" and the "-orrow" words where I have [A]) listed in the article.

As for my vowels before /N/, I may have some tense vowels:

"hang" [heN]
"sing" [siN]
"song" [sAN]

It's interesting how this become a discussion over tense-lax neutralizations when I was originally just checking to see who had [3`] and who didn't. Great discussion. Thanks for all the comments so far, guys :)