To what extent does having a unique national language help create a sense of national unity and patriotism? Does it do this by differentiating the culture to make it seem more unique?
unique language and national identity
Brazilians use the same language but they don't give a damn how the language should be called (Portuguese or Brazilian), they just use the language as a linguistic tool, and not like a symbol of identity...The same is true of US, there is no ''language cult and worship'' that exist in Portugal (cult of Portuguese language), Spain (worship of Spanish), German (worship of German), France (French language is a holly Cow LOL).
In the US and Brazil, people just use the language, for communication,
they are not celebrate it as a holly cow or something, and many times they even don't understand British English or Continental Portuguese. (Translation and dubbing aren't rare)
In the US and Brazil, people just use the language, for communication,
they are not celebrate it as a holly cow or something, and many times they even don't understand British English or Continental Portuguese. (Translation and dubbing aren't rare)
Excuse me, Guest, in Germany there is no worship of German. Our ministers of education have decided to destroy the German language by means of a spelling reform which also destroys meaning by tearing apart compound words, hides sense by messing up the interpunctuation rules
and decreases readability of texts by the things already mentioned and omitting hyphens and replacing the wonderful ß letter by ugly ss in many cases. If you know some German, please visit www.sprachforschung.org or www.vrs-ev.de for details. We also mix up our language by loads of English words, even if not necessary. (To my mind, it's necessary sometimes, e. g. in computer and internet terminology) E. g. in Germany, you can go to a boutique for buying a body bag. Nice, isn't it?
and decreases readability of texts by the things already mentioned and omitting hyphens and replacing the wonderful ß letter by ugly ss in many cases. If you know some German, please visit www.sprachforschung.org or www.vrs-ev.de for details. We also mix up our language by loads of English words, even if not necessary. (To my mind, it's necessary sometimes, e. g. in computer and internet terminology) E. g. in Germany, you can go to a boutique for buying a body bag. Nice, isn't it?
I mean, in Germany there is a strict language policy, standard language is always imposed, and local accents are mocked at, and there is a Duden society which declares what is correct and what is wrong. This is so unlike the situation in Brazil or US where the communication feature of language is preferred over the nationalistic component of a language.
To proof my claims, see here:
http://www.sprachforschung.org/ickler/index.php?show=news&id=1019#12431
http://www.sprachforschung.org/ickler/index.php?show=news&id=1019#12431
Guest, where in Germany is a strict language policy? We don't even have a language law, like in France or Poland, as far as I know. I never experienced that standard language is imposed. It is used in the media to a certain extent, in everydays life to a certain extent. There is even a federal state claming not to know Hochdeutsch.
I think that I speak Hochdeutsch, but surely, even if I don't realize it, I have a dialectal coloring of my speach. I live in the region of Frankfurt. I once was in Stuttgart, asking a local about the way. He told me, that I'm not form there, so he must have noticed some dialectal coloring. Surely, there is some mokery about dialectal use sometimes, but I never really took it for serious. Germany is fairly big, compared to most other european countries, we need a standard language, so there will ever be a little mocking about use of dialects.
The Duden was declared authoritative after WWII, but has lost this status after the socalled ''Rechtschreibreform'' (orthographic reform). In fact, it has still some reputation which it doesn't deserve after his role in the reform. Duden was descriptive before and is prescriptive after the reform has started. Linguistically, it therefore has no value at all, now.
In many cases, there is no right or wrong today, but several variants, making orthography unreliable und confusing, especially for pupils and foreign language lerners. Often, there is a ''recommended'' variant, which of course isn't the usual form. There are several differing dictionarys, and all of them are condsidered correct for marking by the ministers of education.
The reform itself rapes the language, contradicts the internal structure of German.
The reform was intended to destroy Hochdeutsch and to lay the authoritative power over the language return to the state. Thats the most terrible thing ever can happen to a language.
See here: http://www.schriftdeutsch.de/orth-zie.htm
In item 4. Staatliche "Kompetenz" there is:
"Das Ziel der Reform waren aber gar nicht die Neuerungen. Das Ziel war, die Rechtschreibregelung aus der Kompetenz eines deutschen Privatverlages in die staatliche Kompetenz zurückzuholen."
Rough translation:
The reform didn't aim at the innovations. The aim was to take back the reglementation of orthography out of the competence of a german private society to the state.
4. Staatliche "Kompetenz"
Ein weiteres, vielleicht sogar das entscheidende Ziel der "Reform" kam nur durch Zufall an den Tag: Am 31. Januar 1998 gestand Karl Blüml, österreichisches Mitglied der Zwischenstaatlichen Kommission, in einem Interview mit der Zeitung Der Standard: "Das Ziel der Reform waren aber gar nicht die Neuerungen. Das Ziel war, die Rechtschreibregelung aus der Kompetenz eines deutschen Privatverlages in die staatliche Kompetenz zurückzuholen."
Gemeint war natürlich der Duden-Verlag. Das Verb zurückzuholen dokumentiert dabei den Glauben der Kommission, wem die "Kompetenz", die Rechtschreibung zu regeln, zusteht: nicht den Bürgern, sondern dem Staat. Ob dieses Reformziel dauerhaft erreicht ist, d. h. ob die Anmaßung einer Zuständigkeit für die deutsche Sprache Bestand hat, wird sich noch zeigen. "Kompetenz" im Sinne linguistischen Sachverstandes hat der Staat ohnehin nicht, da es immer die schlechtesten Wissenschaftler (falls überhaupt!) sind, die ihre Unabhängigkeit und damit die Wissenschaft schlechthin an ihn verkaufen.
www.schriftdeutsch.de is a wonderful resource on topics concerning german orthography for and after the reform.
Today, the most reliable german dictionary is that made by Theodor Ickler: http://rechtschreibung.com/Seiten2/Wissenschaft/970IcklerWBRegel.html
Forget about the rest.
I think that I speak Hochdeutsch, but surely, even if I don't realize it, I have a dialectal coloring of my speach. I live in the region of Frankfurt. I once was in Stuttgart, asking a local about the way. He told me, that I'm not form there, so he must have noticed some dialectal coloring. Surely, there is some mokery about dialectal use sometimes, but I never really took it for serious. Germany is fairly big, compared to most other european countries, we need a standard language, so there will ever be a little mocking about use of dialects.
The Duden was declared authoritative after WWII, but has lost this status after the socalled ''Rechtschreibreform'' (orthographic reform). In fact, it has still some reputation which it doesn't deserve after his role in the reform. Duden was descriptive before and is prescriptive after the reform has started. Linguistically, it therefore has no value at all, now.
In many cases, there is no right or wrong today, but several variants, making orthography unreliable und confusing, especially for pupils and foreign language lerners. Often, there is a ''recommended'' variant, which of course isn't the usual form. There are several differing dictionarys, and all of them are condsidered correct for marking by the ministers of education.
The reform itself rapes the language, contradicts the internal structure of German.
The reform was intended to destroy Hochdeutsch and to lay the authoritative power over the language return to the state. Thats the most terrible thing ever can happen to a language.
See here: http://www.schriftdeutsch.de/orth-zie.htm
In item 4. Staatliche "Kompetenz" there is:
"Das Ziel der Reform waren aber gar nicht die Neuerungen. Das Ziel war, die Rechtschreibregelung aus der Kompetenz eines deutschen Privatverlages in die staatliche Kompetenz zurückzuholen."
Rough translation:
The reform didn't aim at the innovations. The aim was to take back the reglementation of orthography out of the competence of a german private society to the state.
4. Staatliche "Kompetenz"
Ein weiteres, vielleicht sogar das entscheidende Ziel der "Reform" kam nur durch Zufall an den Tag: Am 31. Januar 1998 gestand Karl Blüml, österreichisches Mitglied der Zwischenstaatlichen Kommission, in einem Interview mit der Zeitung Der Standard: "Das Ziel der Reform waren aber gar nicht die Neuerungen. Das Ziel war, die Rechtschreibregelung aus der Kompetenz eines deutschen Privatverlages in die staatliche Kompetenz zurückzuholen."
Gemeint war natürlich der Duden-Verlag. Das Verb zurückzuholen dokumentiert dabei den Glauben der Kommission, wem die "Kompetenz", die Rechtschreibung zu regeln, zusteht: nicht den Bürgern, sondern dem Staat. Ob dieses Reformziel dauerhaft erreicht ist, d. h. ob die Anmaßung einer Zuständigkeit für die deutsche Sprache Bestand hat, wird sich noch zeigen. "Kompetenz" im Sinne linguistischen Sachverstandes hat der Staat ohnehin nicht, da es immer die schlechtesten Wissenschaftler (falls überhaupt!) sind, die ihre Unabhängigkeit und damit die Wissenschaft schlechthin an ihn verkaufen.
www.schriftdeutsch.de is a wonderful resource on topics concerning german orthography for and after the reform.
Today, the most reliable german dictionary is that made by Theodor Ickler: http://rechtschreibung.com/Seiten2/Wissenschaft/970IcklerWBRegel.html
Forget about the rest.
It seems that the language plays a much bigger part in 'defining' the national culture if that language is unique to the country. For example, Hungarian is very important to Hungarian culture as a whole and plays an integral part, but English is not quintessential to the Australian culture. Australian culture is conducted through English but English is not a defining part of it.
<<To what extent does having a unique national language help create a sense of national unity and patriotism?>>
Maybe it's just me, but was I the only one who thought Guest was talking about a country without other minor languages and dialects involved, a country with a unique (just one) language?
Otherwise, what is a unique language? A rare one? One with features that no-other language has?
it seems strange, and yet people start jumping already accusing one country or the other, geez...
When people say a stupid thing like <<The same is true of US, there is no ''language cult and worship'' that exist in Portugal (cult of Portuguese language), Spain (worship of Spanish), German (worship of German), France (French language is a holly Cow LOL)>>, it just makes it clear they don't know anything about any of those countries, not to mention their languages or dialects.
Maybe it's just me, but was I the only one who thought Guest was talking about a country without other minor languages and dialects involved, a country with a unique (just one) language?
Otherwise, what is a unique language? A rare one? One with features that no-other language has?
it seems strange, and yet people start jumping already accusing one country or the other, geez...
When people say a stupid thing like <<The same is true of US, there is no ''language cult and worship'' that exist in Portugal (cult of Portuguese language), Spain (worship of Spanish), German (worship of German), France (French language is a holly Cow LOL)>>, it just makes it clear they don't know anything about any of those countries, not to mention their languages or dialects.
<<Maybe it's just me, but was I the only one who thought Guest was talking about a country without other minor languages and dialects involved, a country with a unique (just one) language?
Otherwise, what is a unique language? A rare one? One with features that no-other language has? >>
I was referring to languages spoken only in one country, or only by one ethnic group. For example, Finnish is spoken only in Finland, but English is spoken in many countries by many different types of people.
<<It seems that the language plays a much bigger part in 'defining' the national culture if that language is unique to the country. For example, Hungarian is very important to Hungarian culture as a whole and plays an integral part, but English is not quintessential to the Australian culture. Australian culture is conducted through English but English is not a defining part of it.>
This is true, and it is even more pronounced when the language is a minority language. A different language can differentiate peoples which are not actually very far apart culturally. For example, Catalan speakers in Spain place huge emphasis on their language, and this is actually what differentiates them from Spanish people the most. Their cultures are not very different except for the language thing. The same thing happens in QUebec (although it is not strictly what I'm talking aobut, because French is spoken in many other countries). Nationalistic tendencies tend to be less strong when there is no language issue (ie Scotland).
Otherwise, what is a unique language? A rare one? One with features that no-other language has? >>
I was referring to languages spoken only in one country, or only by one ethnic group. For example, Finnish is spoken only in Finland, but English is spoken in many countries by many different types of people.
<<It seems that the language plays a much bigger part in 'defining' the national culture if that language is unique to the country. For example, Hungarian is very important to Hungarian culture as a whole and plays an integral part, but English is not quintessential to the Australian culture. Australian culture is conducted through English but English is not a defining part of it.>
This is true, and it is even more pronounced when the language is a minority language. A different language can differentiate peoples which are not actually very far apart culturally. For example, Catalan speakers in Spain place huge emphasis on their language, and this is actually what differentiates them from Spanish people the most. Their cultures are not very different except for the language thing. The same thing happens in QUebec (although it is not strictly what I'm talking aobut, because French is spoken in many other countries). Nationalistic tendencies tend to be less strong when there is no language issue (ie Scotland).
>>and decreases readability of texts by the things already mentioned and omitting hyphens and replacing the wonderful ß letter by ugly ss in many cases. If you know some German, please visit [...]
I love ß as a foreign learner.
Haha, I should be happy that the PRC won't impose anything on me in the near future, as far as language is concerned. The only danger would actually be that many of us might destroy our own language voluntarily in favor of English....................... actually, I think Mandarin is more possible. Yes, they might replace theirs with Mandarin instead, while still learning English.
In this case, I suspect that this govt has at least some economic and cultural vision. Now, the situation is: free market. Only those utilitarian idiots would want to give up their languages.
One of the popular complaints, though, is that people tend to believe that it's one language, instead of multiple. This has been so popular that... the site I wrote earlier is called chinesepod instead of mandarinpod or putonghuapod. I know perfectly, however, that I write my own version of Chinese perfectly, my own regional sort of Chinese perfectly, but the Beijing counterparts (sort of) not so perfectly.
To be optimistic, though, I think it's never enough to learn just one sort of it. Chinese is like a full pack of Nero. Take it or leave it, either you won't learn it, or you have to take at least a few parts. This could be more interesting than some others with only one standard and one major accent...
I love ß as a foreign learner.
Haha, I should be happy that the PRC won't impose anything on me in the near future, as far as language is concerned. The only danger would actually be that many of us might destroy our own language voluntarily in favor of English....................... actually, I think Mandarin is more possible. Yes, they might replace theirs with Mandarin instead, while still learning English.
In this case, I suspect that this govt has at least some economic and cultural vision. Now, the situation is: free market. Only those utilitarian idiots would want to give up their languages.
One of the popular complaints, though, is that people tend to believe that it's one language, instead of multiple. This has been so popular that... the site I wrote earlier is called chinesepod instead of mandarinpod or putonghuapod. I know perfectly, however, that I write my own version of Chinese perfectly, my own regional sort of Chinese perfectly, but the Beijing counterparts (sort of) not so perfectly.
To be optimistic, though, I think it's never enough to learn just one sort of it. Chinese is like a full pack of Nero. Take it or leave it, either you won't learn it, or you have to take at least a few parts. This could be more interesting than some others with only one standard and one major accent...
Thanks, Xie, for loving the ß!
<<The only danger would actually be that many of us might destroy our own language voluntarily in favor of English.......................>>
I think that exactly that is happening in German speaking countries today. The reforms in part aims at making german texts look more like englisch ones. On the other side, they (the reformers) failed in achieving their primary goal to use capitalisation rules similar to English, so now, there is more capitalisation as in classical german orthography. The new rules also enforce the distortion of foreign especially english terms by compounding. Wired, isn't it?
Xie, what do you mean by PRC?
<<The only danger would actually be that many of us might destroy our own language voluntarily in favor of English.......................>>
I think that exactly that is happening in German speaking countries today. The reforms in part aims at making german texts look more like englisch ones. On the other side, they (the reformers) failed in achieving their primary goal to use capitalisation rules similar to English, so now, there is more capitalisation as in classical german orthography. The new rules also enforce the distortion of foreign especially english terms by compounding. Wired, isn't it?
Xie, what do you mean by PRC?