Using the Internet to study languages (other than English)

Anderson   Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:58 am GMT
There is more to it.
Xie   Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:36 am GMT
>>I don't want to direct people to language sites that have cult-related material in addition to language materials.

I think I can understand how difficult it would be to go from a Chinese language to an IE language.

Ironically, I wouldn't think I learned anything at all without getting involved in such a cult. Foreign language is a fairly exclusive CoP unless something magical happens... while classes introduce me to somebody, it doesn't follow, unfortunately, that it'd lead to anywhere. In terms of real interactions, it's obvious that going to the target country is fairly imperative; for "immersion" without that,

-->I can find it on the internet. There is plenty of content for free. Heck, you can listen in English and then Deutsch for the same broadcast.

Yep, just by listening only.

What I did? Besides involving in a cult (if at all), I was keeping a private journal about it. Difficult to say here, but anyway, yes, I spent quite a bit of time, at the expense of monthly income from part-time jobs. I can only say it's still a relief for a student to be able, here, to manage both studies and lingoes (along with the "cult"). But I won't do this again.

==
(I didn't notice your reply, sorry)

There are always some personal concerns, and for me, ditto. I'd say the whole affair is still a hobby, but I see the ultimate limits to it. (I may have talked abt this very much already). But anyway, as a summary, what I think now is that there are far _more_ languages for passive knowledge than for actually using them. Did I (and others) spend time aimlessly for something like a cult or something futile? Not quite, I _believe_. At least I've been able to solve some problems with classes (which sounds a universally tricky one...) that _most_ others didn't. Most people failed in the very first attempt without getting to know cult products.

All the output/input talks, class talks, lingo talks, language politics... yep, they're irrelevant to actually learning the language itself, and even learning the language itself could be pointless if you can't do anything with it - considering actual use, let's say. Yet, I guess academic stuff/colloquial discourse related to hobbies like such is often like that. You didn't know it by intuition. You tried first, and you got involved. After you learned something, or a lot, you might end up quitting it for other matters of life. To become familiar, and to de-familiarize yourself from the same affair, gives a new reading about itself.

Frankly, I still keep on learning *when I have time*, but as usual, I won't press myself.

Let me finish it for now. I still have something to do today.
Xie   Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:09 am GMT
I should add something more.

>>In terms of real interactions, it's obvious that going to the target country is fairly imperative; for "immersion" without that<<

#1: For immersion without real interactions, it'll be all about passive knowledge. You can see that I can do the same with English (with a very very substantial mileage in terms of _years_).

To put it shortly, Lomb's point, that the target country largely acts as a physical environment for the target language (immersion), and she said "stones can't talk". Foreign immersion doesn't mean anything even if you're already there. It has to be structured, very structured, with lots of structures... If this discussions goes on, that would be a cult.

Lomb's point cannot be taken literally.

#2: In the long run, I also think there are also limitations to how many you can learn. Even if I could stay in China as a foreigner (in reality, as a native myself, I don't know everything of its semi-native language, either), oh no, I have to say that learning Chinese, even in China, could be as difficult as to expect (without saying anything) someone like me to speak English without an "accent". The popular belief that you should/it's better that you have multiple years of immersion _is_ valid, I think.

Unless you're raised as a bilingual (but being bilingual at that age could be troublesome, as I witnessed) (perhaps better not to be), you may end up having the face identity problems, among other affective filters, as an adult. When face-to-face immersion has to be there, identity comes into play.

#3: I can also expect my personal affair with foreign languages could be gloomy. Of coz, I'll still work on it, but what happens?

Now, exactly: in two universities, I met almost ten or so people who concentrate on different languages, some on English alone, some German, some French, some a combination of two or three. Hardly any of them has profound experience nor any mastery. The two who excelled in German are already the strongest or, acc. to a teacher, a "genius" - both have real immersion experiences.

But they're in a very small minority. Most others end up starting to forget the language, or drop out, or something. Needless to say, the most detrimental factor is entirely social.

I can mention a vivid example: there is a guy C who graduated with a language major like such (well, which is what I'm taking too!) maybe two years ago. When I asked him about that, he admitted briefly that he is afraid of speaking it. I could see he could still speak, but that's hardly anywhere near to mastery or something. Then, I think: ah, that's pointless. The guy didn't even try to learn anymore; that's of coz his own business, not mine, but I can't forget this case. IF I won't really end up having anything more to do with the same language he learned, I'd end up like him too.

Then, well, I must say there exists a threshold of withholding your learning efforts. If I go to work like him (at the same university, not post-grad, not one who can still learn languages, but has to do office work), then yes, it's now pointless for him to go on.

I didn't tell anybody about this; some of my classmates do know him (as an alumnus). Then I see: my goodness, this business is pointless. How come language has become so much social as a major that... once you leave the language department, you start to forget it? Hong Kong is probably a good place to meet foreigners (*but the majority don't suppose they're there to be language partnering machines), but NOT a good place (like anywhere else?) for this business.

Nothing more can be said about guy C - I'm not being sexist, but I believe guys usually do better, or they're supposed to do better, in this kind of department. Still, he strikes me as a failed example (but a good example as a career mentor, perhaps!).
K. T.   Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:42 am GMT
When I used "cult" I used it in the "religious" way. Some language sites have language content in addition to religious group content. In other words, I am not certain if the admin. of site "L" is truly interested in languages or is using it to attract people to his "belief system".

Let's say that I know that a certain country in Asia does not look with approval on cult L. I'm not going to send a person to that website and get him/her in trouble. That's about as blunt as I can be.

While some sites may have a "cult-like" philosophy, this doesn't bother me. I don't agree that one should only learn one language at a time, so I don't post on the (otherwise) excellent site by the Francophone FX. I don't mind sending people over there to discuss languages, though. Language philosophy is not religion.

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"When I asked him about that, he admitted briefly that he is afraid of speaking it."

He'll have to get over that fear-it's uncomfortable to say something stupid in another language.

I don't know where you are in your speaking abilities. I feel excitement and anxiety both when I have to sail for the first few times in another language. Maybe some people are cool enough to sound like Kato Lomb or James Bond instantly, but I'm not. I have to pay my dues, and say a few dumb things before I can break the language barrier.

What are your goals? Basically I learn to communicate with others in my community. Although I've started to learn some languages for fun, speaking is my primary goal, so fear is just a momentary discomfort on my way to fluency.

For some people being able to read in twenty languages is important. To me, that's not such an enticing goal because I usually try to learn speaking, reading and understanding at the same time.
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"Now, exactly: in two universities, I met almost ten or so people who concentrate on different languages, some on English alone, some German, some French, some a combination of two or three. Hardly any of them has profound experience nor any mastery. The two who excelled in German are already the strongest or, acc. to a teacher, a "genius" - both have real immersion experiences."

I don't think this is unusual. I've met language majors in the States who are terrible speakers of French or clumsy speakers of German. They are pleasant, but just a little too shy to push themselves to fluency. "How far can you lean out of your comfort zone?" "Are you willing to perspire in order to master the language?" These are questions that people should ask themselves if they want to be a polyglot.
Xie   Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:50 am GMT
>>When I used "cult" I used it in the "religious" way. Some language sites have language content in addition to religious group content. In other words, I am not certain if the admin. of site "L" is truly interested in languages or is using it to attract people to his "belief system".

That'd be a terribly interesting cult to know about..

>>I don't agree that one should only learn one language at a time

Oh, that's just very personal. When I re-thought about it, I still thought FX wouldn't had any responsibility, even though he's the admin of one of the very few sites that others can find, if I misunderstood someone/something. His comment on program A still strikes me as subjective, as it "is", but that I'd been out of luck not to have looked into A earlier doesn't mean I should blame FX. That's just an example.

>>What are your goals? Basically I learn to communicate with others in my community. Although I've started to learn some languages for fun, speaking is my primary goal, so fear is just a momentary discomfort on my way to fluency.

A new topic might be nice. But yeah, using the "Internet" is already a point of learning lingoes. I google quite a lot for something as important as news and something as trivial/obscure as p2p links. It surely helps when I know more words... even in an unknown language.

==

The thing about learning in class is a complicated matter _about_ planning. I'm not saying to plan a lot but, just, to _do_ some right things, other than just to think a lot without doing anything substantial.

Needless to say, fluency is still miles beyond me.
Xie   Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:25 am GMT
Let me write down a few random thoughts... I can't see the point of starting a new topic for this:

-my method has some structure, but not quite, at least not to the extent of over-analyzing stuff.
-in light of ANTIMOON itself, I can generalize that: it's possible to strcture my method with what antimoon offers as (very) general advice for learning. But one huge omission might be the use of flashcards. I don't mean I won't use it, but until now, I can't enjoy the benefit of doing so.

when I tried to use any program akin to Supermemo, it often turned out that
1) it's useless becoz I remember the fact anyway
2) it's useless becoz I can check the same thing all over again, using even less time than opening this program again
3) it's useless becoz I won't care about this context/phrase/word.

Kyrgyzstan /kɜ.gɪstɑn/ /kɝ-/ noun [U]

like this name of a country. I know it in my native language, and its spelling always looks so strange and difficult. With spaced repetition, I'll remember it, but I'm motivated to, so I shouldn't even enter a card for this. And since ALL items I added/would have want to add/can add fall into all the above categories, I see little point of using flashcards, although I never rule out the possibility of using flashcards.

-my method is, above all, structured and directed at comprehensible input, perhaps also along the lines of the method that our admins suggest. As I say, the only omission is flashcards.

Perhaps the fourth reason, which also applies to my view on languages in general after 4 years of immersion in forums, websites, experiences, textbooks, contexts, cultures....etc, may be more important:

4) I see the limits of autodidacticism. Time, energy, motivation, physical exposure to foreign languages, etc. Motivation is very vague. Exposure, though, is very obvious. As outlined above, I value physical exposure to the point that I think it's actually quite implausible to stay with your computer to study pronunciation and accent and read narratives all the time. That something is doable, and acceptable, doesn't mean it's very good to do.

Despite the Lombian claim about physical environment (it could have been Soviet Russia, but any target country would do), it's very obvious that foreign language study can sound like a fetish, and IS a fetish if you over-analyze flashcards - but what's ironic is you may actually find it a lot of fun to use flashcards as a fetish. In that case, fetish motivation should work quite well. Unfortunately, it didn't work out for me. In normal situations, foreign language actually, for some reasons I won't bother to say, may distance yourself from some others if it becomes a fetish. Introducing films and songs to those others might work, really. Yet, reading in a foreign language, no matter which form (film watching, novel reading, etc), is exclusive and rather personal and individual. I don't think it should hurt at all if you stop a language for quite a long time without (if at all) revitalizing it, if it's of no use for you.

This sounds very general, I know. I won't say somebody's hobby sounds like a fetish (this is grossly negative), but, you know, language may be something worth/good speaking poorly, and you won't probably want to be perfectionist. Having that said, my passion is pretty much driven away by those limits. It's simply a matter of fact, so that doesn't mean I'm disappointed.

(in view of this, I should add that I don't like the analogy of learning naturally, "according to Zhuangzi". Gosh, not every Chinese knows Zhuangzi that well, and so do I. Theorists who have too much time to waste, and want too much fame, by definition always aim for fame by writing... nonsense.)
Xie   Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:45 am GMT
Thanks for reading my unnecessarily long prose. To finish my prose about theory (so, I'm returning to colloquial style for good): Why do I say flashcards should be my omission?

1) for reasons mentioned above
2) when it's like a rule of thumb that you should learn in context (yeah, yeah, I know, some words don't need context), ok, so to speak, then I think it's perfectly OK to choose what not to learn, even if that's completely "correct" input. (Identity itself already limits how much of a foreign language you can learn. So, yes, my supplement should be that the ultimate limits are about identity.) So, it also follows that, since I won't re-read something intentionally unless I have strong motivation, flashcards would be incompatible with my (this Chinese guy called Xie) own ways of thinking. Above all, I'm a _very_ lazy reader.
3) with my argument about (interesting) context, it also follows that I actually oppose some of the most popular methods there are for Japanese and Chinese.

I should write some more for point 3: WHY? Even before discussing, I should admit that I wouldn't possibly use this method at all, so I'm arguing from a very weak standpoint, as a native myself.

<<The average German says (in English): I think you guys know more German grammar than I do, so I don't need to explain.>>

I can't understand why some foreigners find it very good to "remember" pictograms, among others, through using associations without a real context; some even use flashcards on top of that. The matter with Hanzi/Kanji strikes me as a classic example of using flashcards correctly, according to those who like it, and conceptually wrong, to me. I can't speak for the Japanese, but I believe average Chinese learn Hanzi in context and, exactly, by constantly building their knowledge and retaining it for life. I do make lots of mistakes, but that's what I do.

==

For my presentation purpose, I should now conclude... that I don't have a method at all. All the talks about input, method, memory, motivation, etc, are just talks, not the reality.