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Do you think German is more difficult than Chinese?
If you just compare German and Mandarin Chinese in terms of structure, not considering the writing system, and the lack of cognates in Mandarin for Indo-European speakers, it might just depend on what you consider more difficult, a tonal system or declension, noun genders and a complex word worder.
Personally I still think that while it may not be that difficult to understand the concept of a tonal system, actually applying it will be difficult to anyone not used to it - unless you have perfect pitch.*g*
One of the aspects that might make German difficult is the fact that it seems to be somewhere in between 'archaic' and 'modern' Indo-European languages. Being only mildly inflected, German doesn't have a completely free worder like, say, Greek or Latin. However, as it still retains inflection, word order isn't as fixed and simple as it is in English, French or Italian.
Leonora Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:19 pm GMT
<<If you just compare German and Mandarin Chinese in terms of structure, not considering the writing system, and the lack of cognates in Mandarin for Indo-European speakers, it might just depend on what you consider more difficult, a tonal system or declension, noun genders and a complex word worder.>>
Your comparison of juxtaposing tone with declension is unfair.
As you say if we JUST compare structure, why drag in tone which is the phonetic field?
Don't you think the lack of decension is far less difficult than the presence of unnecessary declension?
Just see how native English speakers complain about such redundant stuff like declension in languages like German.
<<Personally I still think that while it may not be that difficult to understand the concept of a tonal system, actually applying it will be difficult to anyone not used to it - unless you have perfect pitch.*g*>>
Point taken!
<<One of the aspects that might make German difficult is the fact that it seems to be somewhere in between 'archaic' and 'modern' Indo-European languages. Being only mildly inflected, German doesn't have a completely free worder like, say, Greek or Latin. However, as it still retains inflection, word order isn't as fixed and simple as it is in English, French or Italian.>>
I just think the complex declension in German tops the list of all difficulties in learning German. LOL
However, as it still retains inflection, word order isn't as fixed and simple as it is in English, French or Italian.
I'm sorry but I don't agree at all. English and Italian syntax ( word order) isn't fixed at all in English and particularly in Italian (French or spanish), but word order is quite free. Although the German grammar retains a very simplified system of cases, in my opinion it is more logical and fixed than the above-mentioned languages. On the contrary It seems to me that German plurals are rather irregular and unpredictable.
por-do sol Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:43 pm GMT
<<I'm sorry but I don't agree at all. English and Italian syntax ( word order) isn't fixed at all in English and particularly in Italian (French or spanish), but word order is quite free. Although the German grammar retains a very simplified system of cases, in my opinion it is more logical and fixed than the above-mentioned languages. On the contrary It seems to me that German plurals are rather irregular and unpredictable.>>
Pay attention to this fact:
The basic sentence structure or word order in English is only Subject + Verb + Object!
@shuimo先生：
"Your language learning experience sounds quite impressive! I really wonder
what has motivated you learn these languages. Are you a lover of foreign language learning? "
I just LOVE to learn new ways for expressing myself and think my life would be BORING if I only spoke Portuguese and lived all my life in Brazil without knowing there's no much to be experienced and learned!! I studied Chinese, Korean and Japanese because I was tired of people around me studying only western languages. I thought it would be more interesting doing something different. In the case of Chinese and Japanese I just LOVE THE characters!!!
"Brazilian is not 巴士人, it should be 巴西人
<Chinese grammar is easy (中文的文法是容易),>
Chinese grammar is easy. It should be put thins way: 中文的语法很容易。
The word 是 in the sentence 中文的文法是容易 is absolutley unnecessary, and sounds extremely awkward. If you insist on adding 是,then you must add 的 at the end of the sentence. LOL "
Thanks for the corrections and hints 老师！It is easy to say "your language skills" suck but not so easy to correct other people. 谢谢你！
"您 in Chinese is never used in a plural sense together with 们。
The word expressing plural sense is 们, not 门。"
Got you on that 老师. What I wanted to say was "thank you folks" kind of thing but it didn't work. changing 门 for 们 was really a mistake which I knew...knowing something doesn't mean you'll do it all the time...
"Best luck to your learning of Chinese!
Happy 牛 year! (*^__^*)"
Thanks for the motivation!! 我感谢你的帮助！新年快乐！！拜拜！88!
The basic sentence structure or word order in English is only Subject + Verb + Object!
As everybody knows there are not only simple and basic sentences in a language...
HEY, since when was declension hard? It's much easier than using a plethora of prepositions.
<<I'm sorry but I don't agree at all. English and Italian syntax ( word order) isn't fixed at all in English and particularly in Italian (French or spanish), but word order is quite free. Although the German grammar retains a very simplified system of cases, in my opinion it is more logical and fixed than the above-mentioned languages.>>
I've heard the word order is often quite difficult for learners of German, but not a major issue in English or Western Romance languages. But maybe that's just one of the 'myths' about the supposedly 'awful German language'. *g*
<<On the contrary It seems to me that German plurals are rather irregular and unpredictable. >>
Is that really an issue when learning a language? You just have to learn a noun both in its singular and plural form.
<I still think that while it may not be that difficult to understand the concept of a tonal system, actually applying it will be difficult to anyone not used to it - unless you have perfect pitch.*g*>
I think being musical helps a lot in language learning. Some people will deny this, but being able to imitate sounds is a big help. I don't think it's necessary to have perfect pitch. I don't have it and Chinese people understand me.
J.C. san,
Can we use the characters先生when addressing a teacher? I have never studied Mandarin with a teacher-only on my own. When do you use "laoshi"?
Obrigado!
"Can we use the characters先生when addressing a teacher?"
@ Language lover: Actually I used 先生 in its Chinese meaning, which is
a word that shows respect toward your listener liks Mr. or Mrs.
In Japanese it means mainly "teacher" but can also be used when addressing doctors, pastors, lawyers and other professionals that have a degree (I guess).
As for studying Mandarin by yourself, welcome to the club. I started in 1993 with some books I bought in Japan and re-started in 1998 for 1 year. However, I only started "aiming the next level" last August and have read and heard as much as I can.
De nada!!!
謝謝！！
>中文的文法是容易
The subject-predicate sentence is peculiar in Chinese because very often it isn't used at all. When I say isn't used, it doesn't I set up this rule, but no one says this.
On the spectrum of verbs, Chinese stands at the easiest end.
1) Some languages have extensive verb systems, often characterized by conjugations, such as the Romance ones; Germanic ones are less elaborate.
2) Some languages can drop the pronouns (often as subjects) when the verb already marks the person, the tense, etc. I'm not sure, but there must be some from Europe.
3) Some languages has few or no conjugations, and even minimize verbs to the extent of hiding it - in a fashion like French elision of articles.
中文的文法是容易的
or
中文的文法很容易
Chinese grammar is easy + affirmative-marker
or
Chinese grammar is (very) easy.
Then naturally the Chinese often come up with funny answers with such a neutral affirmative answer. Chinese grammar is VERY easy. Die chinesische Grammatik ist SEHR leicht. La grammaire chinoise est TRÈS facile. They tend to insert "very" with practically no intention of emphasizing the degree of the adjective itself. That's strictly a hidden written trace of accent. I met dozens of Chinese learners of European languages, and among all those beginners or "intermediate" guys, "very" is very very very very very frequently used when it's not needed at all. So, don't misunderstand that they're being excited or something about what they describe as "very" + good/bad/any adjective.
>>中文的文法很容易
For such reasons, it may be translated as Chinese grammar is easy or very easy. Any in-exactness? I don't think so. It's just like that.
In some ways, I find the average European verb (I only have English, French, and German examples) much more elaborate than genders, endings, and so on. The latter tends to be those that are difficult when written, but easy to become reflexes. Chinese verbs are easy to write, but difficult to master.
The learning curve of European verbs is something like: you learn a lot of verbs, conjugate very hard, and you always get exact meanings, and visually you won't normally confuse yourself because verbs are so diverse in word form.
That of Chinese verbs is like: you can use far less verbs with no conjugations to say a lot of things. You still get exact meanings, but non-subject-predicate sentences/phrases tend to be far more prominent.
I still wonder: why is Chinese so succinct in single-syllable "words", but so clumsy in writing exact meanings, especially with verbs?
Xie Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:52 pm GMT
>中文的文法是容易
The subject-predicate sentence is peculiar in Chinese because very often it isn't used at all. When I say isn't used, it doesn't I set up this rule, but no one says this.
On the spectrum of verbs, Chinese stands at the easiest end.
1) Some languages have extensive verb systems, often characterized by conjugations, such as the Romance ones; Germanic ones are less elaborate.
2) Some languages can drop the pronouns (often as subjects) when the verb already marks the person, the tense, etc. I'm not sure, but there must be some from Europe.
3) Some languages has few or no conjugations, and even minimize verbs to the extent of hiding it - in a fashion like French elision of articles.
中文的文法是容易的
or
中文的文法很容易
Chinese grammar is easy + affirmative-marker
or
Chinese grammar is (very) easy.
Then naturally the Chinese often come up with funny answers with such a neutral affirmative answer. Chinese grammar is VERY easy. Die chinesische Grammatik ist SEHR leicht. La grammaire chinoise est TRÈS facile. They tend to insert "very" with practically no intention of emphasizing the degree of the adjective itself. That's strictly a hidden written trace of accent. I met dozens of Chinese learners of European languages, and among all those beginners or "intermediate" guys, "very" is very very very very very frequently used when it's not needed at all. So, don't misunderstand that they're being excited or something about what they describe as "very" + good/bad/any adjective.
Xie Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:02 pm GMT
>>中文的文法很容易
For such reasons, it may be translated as Chinese grammar is easy or very easy. Any in-exactness? I don't think so. It's just like that.
In some ways, I find the average European verb (I only have English, French, and German examples) much more elaborate than genders, endings, and so on. The latter tends to be those that are difficult when written, but easy to become reflexes. Chinese verbs are easy to write, but difficult to master.
The learning curve of European verbs is something like: you learn a lot of verbs, conjugate very hard, and you always get exact meanings, and visually you won't normally confuse yourself because verbs are so diverse in word form.
That of Chinese verbs is like: you can use far less verbs with no conjugations to say a lot of things. You still get exact meanings, but non-subject-predicate sentences/phrases tend to be far more prominent.
I still wonder: why is Chinese so succinct in single-syllable "words", but so clumsy in writing exact meanings, especially with verbs?
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Seems that your Chinese is not that crappy as you think! GOOD!
Keep up the good work! LOL
According to http://wals.info/feature/description/49 German has a mid sized case inventory.
<<Just see how native English speakers complain about such redundant stuff like declension in languages like German.>>
Why do you think declension is redundant?
<<One of the aspects that might make German difficult is the fact that it seems to be somewhere in between 'archaic' and 'modern' Indo-European languages.>>
German is a recent language, so why do you consider it ''archaic''? What makes lack of case ''modern''?
<<Being only mildly inflected, German doesn't have a completely free worder like, say, Greek or Latin. However, as it still retains inflection, word order isn't as fixed and simple as it is in English, French or Italian.>>
Is it really true that word order in Greek or Latin is completely free? So, consider a Latin sentence consisting of 10 words, would all of the 10! permutations of the words be an acceptable (syntactically correct) Latin sentence?
<<I just think the complex declension in German tops the list of all difficulties in learning German. LOL>>
German inflects adjectives and nouns. There are languages with more cases, but only inflect the nouns, but not the adjectives.
There are languages with cases, but with rigid word order, too!
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