language switch in France, when and why did it happened?
Curious about France, like its close neighbors the Germans, Dutch and English people it was at the origin founded by a Germanic people.
As it was founded by the Germanic peoples the Franks so how and when did it shift from their Germanic tongues to the Latin/Romance language of French. Was it the Roman Church in the early years 500's/600's that influenced them to change from the mother tongue? Also the Germanic peoples the Visigoths entered the Frankish state when the Moors invaded Spain in the 700's so we have 2 Germanic peoples living there and yet they spoke a Latin Language.
Was it because the old french people though it was more "cultured" and valuable that they switched to this romance language wrongly called "french" (how a romance language can be call by the name that refers to a german people)
Why this did not happened in England? or Germany and Netherlands? Woudn't it having been better if germanic English was completly replaced by a romance tongue? I think yes, it would be great, and the British tried to transmorfed the language into a romance one, but the switch was probably not strong enough, (at the opposite of what happened in France)
to make english classified as romance.
Let me give you an example. Imagine if in what is today the USA there had been ten slaves bought over for every slave owner, and when it gained independence from the British the ratio was roughly 10:1 and the slaves were emancipated. Now imagine most of the slaves spoke a form of AAVE that would mean 90% of the population would be speaking that, so would the slave owners stick with their version of English that only 10% spoke or learn AAVE to communicate with the other 90%?
According to modern linguistics, there was, starting from 5th century, in Northern and Eastern (Lorraine, Burgundy) France a 5 century lasting Bilingualism Frankish-Vulgar-Latin. These two tongues influenced each other. In the 10th century, French and Germanic language were separated by a the actual language boundary that still exists at its place. French became the common language Western of the language boundary, German Eastern of it.
By the time the Franks consolidated their power over Gaul, Gaul had been heavily romanized over the span of 600 years. Its Gallo-Roman inhabitants spoke Latin or Vulgar Latin and were the clear majority in these lands. Because Latin was the language of prestige, the language of the Church, and the written language of Gaul, the Frankish minority eventually assimilated into the substrate culture of their subjects. The same language and faith conversions occurred among the Burgundians, the Vandals, and the Visigoths.
The Germanic tribes that occupied lands that weren't heavily romanized, obviously stuck to their Germanic dialects.
Tony Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:20 pm GMT
<<Curious about France, like its close neighbors the Germans, Dutch and English people it was at the origin founded by a Germanic people.>>
germanic ? no, celt-roman-frank-(africa) maybe.
"language switch in France, when and why did it happened?"
-- There never was any such switch.
Fifteen centuries ago, in the area between the rivers Seine and Rhine, there was a chaotic mix-up of Celtic and Germanic settlements, Romanized Celts, Germanized Celts, Romanized Germans and so on.
With time passing, areas with 50.01 Germanic influence ended up being fully Germanic, those with 50.01 Romance influence became entirely Romance. With a bilingual stripe of land in the middle that became ever narrower during the Middle Age.
That's the way a language boundary appeared through Belgium, Luxembourg, Lorraine, Alsace, Switzerland. Because a line had to be drawn somewhere.
<<"language switch in France, when and why did it happened?"
>>
I think what the OP is asking is when did the 50.01% take place solidifying definite direction toward either one (germanic) or the other (romance).
<<Because Latin was the language of prestige>>
I don't think anyone at the time was concerned about "prestige" and saw it this way. This is really only something those who profess being romance today care about [um, "vanity"; um, "get a life"] :\
People back then were doing enough just to survive and keep from starving to death. Latin wasn't seen as prestigious, but was a lingua franca in Mediaeval Europe.
<<Woudn't it having been better if germanic English was completly replaced by a romance tongue?>>
No, we do not want to be classified as romance.
PARISIEN Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:19 pm GMT
"language switch in France, when and why did it happened?"
-- There never was any such switch.
Fifteen centuries ago, in the area between the rivers Seine and Rhine, there was a chaotic mix-up of Celtic and Germanic settlements, Romanized Celts, Germanized Celts, Romanized Germans and so on.
With time passing, areas with 50.01 Germanic influence ended up being fully Germanic, those with 50.01 Romance influence became entirely Romance. With a bilingual stripe of land in the middle that became ever narrower during the Middle Age.
That's the way a language boundary appeared through Belgium, Luxembourg, Lorraine, Alsace, Switzerland. Because a line had to be drawn somewhere.
___________________________________________
Good statement, but the area was between the rivers Loire and Rhine. There are plenty of Germanic place names in this area, Germanic tombs and Germanic named historical persons.
<<Because Latin was the language of prestige>>
I don't think anyone at the time was concerned about "prestige" and saw it this way. This is really only something those who profess being romance today care about [um, "vanity"; um, "get a life"] :\
People back then were doing enough just to survive and keep from starving to death. Latin wasn't seen as prestigious, but was a lingua franca in Mediaeval Europe.
Latin was too the language of the catholic church. There is some religious reason...
"""Latin was too the language of the catholic church. There is some religious reason... """
On the other hand, Latin was also the language of the defeated and decadent Romaized peoples, not the language of victors. I think prestige was not a real category at that time...
<<On the other hand, Latin was also the language of the defeated >>
No way, the Franks didn't defeat the Romanized people because there was not a fight between them.
<<<<On the other hand, Latin was also the language of the defeated >>
No way, the Franks didn't defeat the Romanized people because there was not a fight between them. >>
The Franks conquered Gaul at the Battle of Vouillé, which was between the Franks and the Visigoths; however the romance speaking population was subjugated by them.
If not defeated, then they were at least conquered.
Sad they couldn't even muster a revolt. Even the Anglosaxons revolted against the Normans.
"On the other hand, Latin was also the language of the defeated and decadent Romaized peoples, not the language of victors."
No, this is nonsense, because:
- First of all Latin and Romance languages are two different things. People back then didn't have any clue that Romance languages might be related in any way to Latin.
- The Latin language was seen as a prestigious tool because it was the property of the Church, it was a highly valued symbol of authority. Somewhat like Excalibur sword. Germanic kings wanted to get command of that tool and put it at their service. Contrary to popular belief, Christianity was imposed on Europe's pagans by German kings. The long controversy between Arianism and regular Roman Christianity was primarily a rivalry between ruling houses of Germanic origin.
- Their never had any idea to defeat or substitute the Roman empire, they wanted to take it under control. Roman christianity and the latin language were part of the package.
- As soon as a purely Germanic realm emerged in the Eastern part of the Frankish Empire, it called itself "Holy Roman Empire". Not just by chance!
"language switch in France, when and why did it happened?"
I think what the OP is asking is when did the 50.01% take place solidifying definite direction toward either one (germanic) or the other (romance)."
-- Such developments takes place quite swiftly. Typically a matter of two to three generations. IMHO around the year 600 the language distribution in Continental Western Europe wasn't significantly different of was it is nowadays (of course there were, and there still is, many local exceptions but as a whole the language map was frozen).
Of course, I only mean Western Europe. The Balkan region is quite another story!
<<- First of all Latin and Romance languages are two different things. People back then didn't have any clue that Romance languages might be related in any way to Latin.
>>
On the contrary, they thought that Romance and Latin were the same thing until realized that their tongue did evolve too much from Latin to the point that Romance speakers no longer understood Ecclesiastical Latin used by the Church. Romance languages were known at those times as "Vulgar Latin". Hence the monks and such had to translate here are there to Romance from Latin.