You shall die!

Shall We?   Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:30 pm GMT
How is "You shall die" different from "You will die" in terms of meaning or nuance?

Also, "Shall I go there?" and "Will I go there?"

So my question is basically, how "shall" is different from "will" in terms of meaning and nuance?
Leasnam   Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:09 pm GMT
"You shall die" implies not only that death will happen in the future, but also that it should or ought to happen. This second sense is magnified when the word 'shall' is stressed. It is less so when not stressed in speech.

Same for "Shall I go there?" = "Should I go there?" as opposed to "Will I go there?" which is conveys a hint of volition.

To sum up
'Shall' is future tense + [Optional: obligation or duty]
'Will' is future tense + [Optional: volition or willingness]
LivingStone   Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:25 pm GMT
Leasnam it's not completely right:


will + 1st person = obligation+duty
shall + 1st person = futurity


will + 2nd/3rd person = futurity
shall + 2nd/3rd person = obligation+duty


A person drowning:
''I shall die, no one will save me.''

Speaking of this person: ''He will die, I/we shan't save him''

There is a legend of a Scottish man living in London, he didn't know how to use SHALL and WILL, he was drowning and he shouted:


''I will die, no one shall save me'' instead of
''I shall die, no one will save me''

And he died because of that.


{PS
will can also express ''willingness'' with all persons, but that's another story...}
Putrefacción   Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:39 pm GMT
There is a legend of a Scottish man living in London, he didn't know how to use SHALL and WILL, he was drowning and he shouted:


''I will die, no one shall save me'' instead of
''I shall die, no one will save me''


Haha, funny.
reality   Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:09 pm GMT
There is actually only a difference in usage and no difference in meaning, "shall" sounds more old fashioned and poetic and hence should be used in more dramatic situations. Probably 95% of native English speakers have no idea of the technical difference, it is just programmed into their brain that normally 'will' is used but 'shall' can be used for effect. So don't worry about all that 'futurity' bullcrap.
furrykef   Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:49 pm GMT
Americans in particular are generally unaware of any difference in connotation between the two, except that "shall" has more of a formal/archaic/dramatic flair. (For instance, when General Douglas MacArthur said "I shall return" upon leaving the Philippines.) I myself wasn't particularly aware of the difference until I read about it.

"You shall" usually implies a command, though, and sometimes it sounds a bit strange when it's used without that sense -- hence why the Scotsman drowns in the "no one shall save me" joke, because it sounds like a command.

- Kef
Damian in Edinburgh   Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:48 pm GMT
"Shall" or "will" - in British English at least it the use of "shall" by an individual....the first person case.....expresses something intentional to be enacted in the future on his part, so when my poor countryman accidentally (repeat..accidentally) fell off Lambeth Bridge and plonked straight into the River Thames he made the grave error of using the wrong words in the wrong place. The stupid Sassenach passer by who saw the whole episode assumed that his use of the word "shall" in "No one shall save me!" indicated that he meant to end it all and din't want to be saved, so not wishing to deny him his last wish he simply carried on across the bridge towards Lambeth Palace and left him to drown in the dark waters of the Thames.

Furthermore his use of the word "will" iin "I will drown!" - again in the first person - reinforced the impression in the passerby's mind that come hell or high water the Scot had every desire to succumb to the deep.....and an English deep at that! Eeks!!

Why, in this story...and it really was a story...in this little exercise in English grammar.... it happened to be a Scotsman dropping into the drink I really don't know...maybe it was yet another English on going "joke" about inebriated Scotsmen! Bloody hell....they're fine ones to talk in that respect!

Here in Edinburgh, Scotland:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRAWfuqIDB4&feature=related

London, England.....in Queensway, Bayswater....why it takes half a dozen London coppers to handle one single drunken bloke when it only takes one or two at the most of our Edinburgh coppers to do the same thing here is a mystery. ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5_xsYVh-60&feature=related